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Box construction

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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 02 Dec 2016, 16:25

Thank you for the kind offer Roger, but yes too late for this one.

Terry.
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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 02 Dec 2016, 16:27

9fingers wrote:Terry, one tip that is no help to you now now but maybe for future boxes is to choose and buy your hinges first..

Then you can choose the thickness of the timber to suit the hinge. either rebate for the full thickness of the timber to match the hinge or make the timber a good few mm thicker than the hinge leaf width.
What you want to avoid is cutting rebates for the hinges just leaving a couple of mm strip intact. Quite likely to end in tears. DAMHIKT!

Another reason is that IME vendors are poor at giving comprehensive dimensions of their hinges. I was trying to match a cock bead size from router cutter range to match the knuckle dimension of the hinge.

Bob


That of course makes perfect sense Bob. My problem is I kind of drifted into making this box with no particular plan in mind. Whilst I am sure I will be proper annoyed at the time, even if it goes horribly wrong I have learnt a fair few things in the process, buying hinges first now being added to that list :oops:

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Re: Box construction

Postby Pinch » 02 Dec 2016, 16:39

I've just thought (yeah yeah...), Terry, I made myself a small box very recently, albeit, crudely made, but it was never going to be anything special. I didn't use any hinges. Would you like me to post a couple of pictures up on your thread?
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Re: Box construction

Postby Woodbloke » 02 Dec 2016, 17:23

TrimTheKing wrote:And I mean just a dab in the centre of that end grain, not all the way along.

Mark


:text-+1: Wot he said, but....you can get away without it if the panel is sufficiently tight in the groove. If there's a little bit of 'slop', gluing the panel prevents it from rattling around - Rob

Edit - no one believes you're making a box 'cos there are no pics :lol: ...it's all a figment of your imagination!
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Re: Box construction

Postby Andyp » 02 Dec 2016, 17:44

yeah come Terry. We demand pics :D
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Re: Box construction

Postby Rod » 02 Dec 2016, 19:54

Are you making the lids separately?
I made some boxes and cut the tops off with a fine kerf blade in my TS.
Used very thin liners poking up slightly with rounded edge, which was enough to make the lids a push fit so no hinges required.

Brusso hinges are first class but very expensive and really need a very special box.
I bought some nice ones from Lee Valley when I was in Toronto and Hobbys used to sell decent ones but haven't checked for a while.

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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 04 Dec 2016, 20:36

Andyp wrote:yeah come Terry. We demand pics :D


Maybe tomorrow, but what with that other thread with perfectly offerings I am not feeling that proud of my efforts right now! Anyway, nothing done in last two days have been distracted with a "Dad project".

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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 04 Dec 2016, 20:41

Rod wrote:Are you making the lids separately?
I made some boxes and cut the tops off with a fine kerf blade in my TS.
Used very thin liners poking up slightly with rounded edge, which was enough to make the lids a push fit so no hinges required.

Brusso hinges are first class but very expensive and really need a very special box.
I bought some nice ones from Lee Valley when I was in Toronto and Hobbys used to sell decent ones but haven't checked for a while.

Rod

The design die is caste now, lid being made separately.

I want decent hinges and at the moment have not found anything that looks decent quality (I think the distinction is "drawn" rather than "pressed"). I have looked at SmartHinge and NeatHinge rail designs, but they only come with stops which I do not want. I looked at Martin.co.uk but by the time you add screws these at not much less than Brusso.

I suspect flung to Canada to buy hinges may be a bit more than buying Brusso :lol:

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Re: Box construction

Postby 9fingers » 04 Dec 2016, 21:01

Lesson n of box making is to always make the bottom and lid as one piece and cut them apart afterwards remembering to adjust the spacing of any fancy joints to allow for the saw kerf.
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Re: Box construction

Postby Woodbloke » 04 Dec 2016, 23:35

9fingers wrote:Lesson n of box making is to always make the bottom and lid as one piece and cut them apart afterwards remembering to adjust the spacing of any fancy joints to allow for the saw kerf.
Bob

Most of the time, yes, but it also depends on what sort of box you're making - Rob
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Re: Box construction

Postby Tusses » 04 Dec 2016, 23:47

since I had a cnc and laser, I kinda painted myself into a corner and started making everything on them ... recently I'm trying to get back into proper woodwork .. and realizing that much nicer things can be mar cheaper and quicker with trad' techniques !


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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 08 Dec 2016, 11:08

Not really worth the wait, but this is where I have got to so far...

Image

As you can see it is inspired by Rob's box which was inspired by the Mira box. As I have still yet to get the long arbour off my tablesaw I went this way as I couldn't easily cut 45 degree mitres, but I always liked Rob's box so it was no hardship :lol: I went with the approximate dimensions suggested on that thread, but to me it then was too deep and it would have been hard for the owner to get a hand into the divided sections. So I decided to make it a two tier version. It is all being made on the fly with no plan other than some vague mental images.

What you see is made from oak. The oak comes from offcuts from an oak floor we had put down in our house about ten years ago that I could not bring myself to throw away. The second tier tray will be in walnut, as will the runners (or whatever the correct name is) that lift it up to give a slight floating appearance (helpful that Rob pointed out the issue with getting the bottom panel the wrong way on his box) and the stop on the back of the lid. I know the overhangs at the front acts as a handle for lifting the lid, but I am also mulling over adding a small walnut 'tab' at the front, as much as anything for aesthetics to balance the walnut accent at back.

It is far from perfect and I can point out a long list of things I am not happy with already. But as the first 'proper' thing I am making it is enjoyable and I am learning a lot. Much more of a challenge than everything I have knocked up for the workshop :lol: .

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Re: Box construction

Postby Malc2098 » 08 Dec 2016, 11:23

Nice.
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Re: Box construction

Postby Andyp » 08 Dec 2016, 12:17

Terry, you are doing yourself an injustice. There is nothing wrong with that box that I can see. Well done and keep the pictures coming.

The best way to learn IS to show our mishaps* as well as our successors. What when wrong and why and how to prevent for next time and how to cover them up.

* I am no way suggesting that you box is a mishap by the way.

I will also bet that whoever you give that box to will be very impressed and the kick you get from that will be worth it.

Keep it up.
cheers

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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 08 Dec 2016, 14:05

Andy

I could go in to detail, but maybe I'll save that for a separate thread when I post the finished box, but suffice to say getting things square and getting joints tight is a touch harder than it looks on YouTube :lol: .

The central divider in the box is a bit of a laugh. I did a dry fit to test then found I could not get it out of one side so I am going to have to live without that being glued. Slightly annoying as there is movement in the side that is not such a 'perfect' fit :cry:

But all a good learning experience and I have enjoyed it, so I am sure it will not be the last box I make. I now need to get a wiggle on to finish it before Christmas.

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Re: Box construction

Postby Woodbloke » 08 Dec 2016, 17:51

Wizard9999 wrote:Andy

I could go in to detail, but maybe I'll save that for a separate thread when I post the finished box, but suffice to say getting things square and getting joints tight is a touch harder than it looks on YouTube :lol: .

The central divider in the box is a bit of a laugh. I did a dry fit to test then found I could not get it out of one side so I am going to have to live without that being glued. Slightly annoying as there is movement in the side that is not such a 'perfect' fit :cry:

But all a good learning experience and I have enjoyed it, so I am sure it will not be the last box I make. I now need to get a wiggle on to finish it before Christmas.

Terry.

Looks pretty good thus far. Getting these types of joints to fit righty tighty is a bit of a pain as you need to sneak up on the fit. All the dividers in the one I made weren't glued either...just a tight push together. If I could offer one comment and that is that the sides look a bit clunkable, it would look more refined if they were a bit slimmer. That said, there's nowt wrong with stuff made in oak which is slightly OTT. A goodly start though and I look forward to seeing the finished box - Rob
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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 08 Dec 2016, 18:44

Yes, it is definitely on the robust side :lol: , the sides are about 15mm. For the life of me I can't remember why, but there was a good reason I landed on that size when I started.

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Re: Box construction

Postby Woodbloke » 08 Dec 2016, 18:58

Wizard9999 wrote:Yes, it is definitely on the robust side :lol: , the sides are about 15mm. For the life of me I can't remember why, but there was a good reason I landed on that size when I started.

Terry.

Must be the pic then 'cos 15mm is about right, but you could go a smidge skinnier, say to 13mm, but it's not critical - Rob
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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 21 Dec 2016, 08:36

I have been plodding on with my box in amongst other critical festive activities. So much harder to get any spare time now the children are at home and I am also having to work this week which was not planned. I am now though at the point I have been dreading, morticing the hinges.

To keep the box under our family £10 secret Santa limit I ended up buying hinges from Homebase, I managed to find some solid brass drawn hinges at a very reasonable price. They are a little bigger than I would have selected if I had completely free choice but they fit the "chunkable" aesthetic and they look OK now I have given them a polish. The screws were rubbish though so I bought some solid brass slot heads from Toolstation (they also need fettling, but nothing dramatic).

I have had a couple of practice runs of cutting the mortises and each is a little better than the one before. The one thing I am still unsure of is depth. The two leafs of the hinge are not half the depth of the round pivot point at the back and so when they are fully closed there is a small gap next to the pivot point. If there were no such gap I would make my mortise depth the same as one leaf of the hinge, but given there is such a gap I am trying to cut my mortise to be half the height of the pivot point. So when the lid sits closed on the box the hinge leaves will be slightly apart, but will be inside the box so unseen. Does this sound correct? If not, what depth would others suggest?

Many thanks.

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Re: Box construction

Postby Malc2098 » 21 Dec 2016, 11:10

Terry, as novice to boxes, I would think the hinge set lower than its surrounding wood would not look quite right. If you set it in just the depth of the leaf, then it would look right to me.

And old chippie once told me the outside of the leaves should be parallel. Indeed, some leaves are tapered. But that would leave a gap at the hinge side of the lid.

Could you use a felt, or similar, pad or pads on the other side of the lid to make up that gap when the lid is closed and provide an element of protection when closing the lid?
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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 24 Dec 2016, 11:14

Well SWMBO is getting a jumper for Christmas, as I totally stuffed up fitting the hinges :(

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Re: Box construction

Postby 9fingers » 24 Dec 2016, 11:22

Terry,

How about passing it through the table saw to trim a slither off the top and bottom, ram some match sticks in the screwholes and then having another go with the hinges and end up with a New Year gift for SWMBO?
Part of woodworking skill is knowing how to recover from a visit from the fc uk-up fairy!

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Re: Box construction

Postby Phil » 24 Dec 2016, 11:25

Wizard9999 wrote: I totally stuffed up fitting the hinges :(

Terry.



Sorry to hear that. You cant perhaps trim that top off by a few mm and try again?


Wizard9999 wrote:Well SWMBO is getting a jumper for Christmas,
Terry.


Hopefully not cables! :lol:
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Re: Box construction

Postby 9fingers » 24 Dec 2016, 11:29

What a sensible suggestion Phil!

Every driver should carry a set of jump leads. :lol:

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Re: Box construction

Postby Wizard9999 » 24 Dec 2016, 11:46

Already got two sets of jump leads, the way my car eats batteries we need them.

Yes, resisted the temptation to immediately take it to the bandsaw! I have a plan for recovery, though I also want to get past the immediate frustration and annoyance. I think the problem lies with the fitting to the box body more so than the lid, so I am thinking I will route out a section of the top of the box side and inlay some walnut into the oak, given the inner tray is walnut it will just be an extra accent.

Anyway, I'll enjoy Christmas and then have a look at it after Boxing Day.

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