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Cyclone dropbox repair

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Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 03 Feb 2017, 12:08

Having recently discovered that a lot of dust and stuff was finding it's way into my Camvac I at last have had a chance to take a close look at the drop box below the cyclone, especially the lid.

Unfortunately I had made the lid from the only piece of wood available at the time, laminated pine. Big mistake. It had bowed. the only alternative material I have at the moment is very good quality birch ply so I decided to repair.
I started by bracing the underneath and adding some draught strip to the recess.
Image

I then added 4 spring clasps to hold the lid down nice and tight. This required still more strengthening of the lid itself and the result will certainly not win a beauty contest - what a bodge. :oops: I will replace in due course.
Image


I the sucked up the contents, previously emptied.
Image

And another inspection of the Camvac :(
Image


I had two blockages due to my over eager shovelling of the chippings into the hose. I reckon that even with the relief value above the drop box there was still enough suction from the Camvac to suck up what you see there.
Rob, if you are watching I would like to do what happens with your Dust Deputy when the PRV is activated. Have you tested? In the time it takes you to switch off the Camvac after the blockage does it manage to suck stuff up through the cyclone?
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Woodbloke » 05 Feb 2017, 00:44

Andyp wrote:Rob, if you are watching I would like to do what happens with your Dust Deputy when the PRV is activated. Have you tested? In the time it takes you to switch off the Camvac after the blockage does it manage to suck stuff up through the cyclone?


Image

Andy, this is the current ducting system which just needs to be tidied up tomorrow. All the 'T's have been replaced with 'Y's, the old plastic blast gates have been replaced with aluminium ones and I've fitted a workshop floor 'gulper' (not shown, but similar to the on on the Ax site).

Having had a conversation with Martin at Toolovation a while ago, he said that the PRV wasn't needed so I took it off and bunged up the hole. I then accidentally switched on the Camvac with all the blast gates shut, whereupon the vacuum almost squashed the barrel flat :o :shock: and ripped off the top of the old dustbin lid separator which I had to re-silicon back in place.

I've since replaced the PRV and it's super sensitive as I only use a tiny 8mm magnet. I don't know what's inside the Camvac, so I'll have a look tomorrow but I don't think there's very much that gets sucked up; I've got clear section in the feed to the Camvac which you just see behind the silver 'astronaut capsule' sitting on top of the cyclone - Rob
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 05 Feb 2017, 10:40

Hi Rob,
I get no satisfaction at all in saying we told you so. :D

You pointed out on your thread that any air gaps below the cyclone would cause an amount of debris to be sucked up into the Camvac. As soon as the PRV is triggered there is a bloody great hole of an air gap below the cyclone which must result in debris being sucked up until the extractor is switched off. This is why I placed my PRV above the cyclone.
I think that this is an inherent problem using high pressure extractors with a cyclone. Now I could argue that after two blockages while sucking up a wheelbarrow load of chippings resulted in less than a handful of debris getting into the Camvac is not a bad return but it aint perfect. And I suspect with the low pressure extractors that this would not happen at all.

Further comments and experiences from those using a cyclone with either HP or LP extractors welcome.
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Woodbloke » 05 Feb 2017, 11:06

Image

Having just looked at the interior of the Camvac, this is the grunge inside after the collapse of the bin a few days ago when the seal 'twixt the old dustbin lid separator was broken. The cloth filter isn't too mucky and there's a a few bits n'pieces at the bottom, so I guess with these HVLP extractors, regular cleaning of the filter will need to be part of the maintenance regime.

I was surprised though, that there wasn't more detritus as I've used it with the floor gulper extensively to clean up instead of a pan and brush, so the colour of the dust inside is floor dirt etc as well as wood dust and as to satisfaction, you should have had the lead role in 'Liar, Liar' :lol: :lol: - Rob
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby 9fingers » 05 Feb 2017, 12:47

HVLP cyclone system has been in use for several years in my shop and the filter cleaned twice. Once when the collection bin filled up, so did the cyclone and the waste was driven through the blower (sucker really!) and into the filters. The other time was routine maintenance that proved to be such a PITA, I've not done it since.

Blockages are not a problem as the collection bin is steel and so is the cyclone. The pipe work is a mix of 110mm soil pipe and 100mm wire reinforced flexi. I'm not convinced that a plastic bin or cyclone would be a problem.
I feel that any significant air leak around the collection bin would defeat the cyclonic separation action and as filter cleaning is such a PITA, I don't feel that inclined to prove this!

The system gets everything from fine wood dust, metal dust to coarse planer shavings thrown at it and it seems to cope.
It does not like rag, paper towel etc or more correctly, I don't like it when it sucks up the odd paper towel as this bypasses the cyclone and flies up to the blower intake and blocks it instantly which means I have to climb up near the ceiling to pull the hose off and retrieve the towel. This naturally always happens in the middle of a job.

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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Tusses » 05 Feb 2017, 13:53

something I've been thinking about for years, but never sat down and took the time to read any threads properly. You know .. you have something that kinda works, so you deal with the more urgent things :oops:

I presume there are plane out there for a diy cyclone (the actual cyclone bit) ? so will have to get looking soon :D

Interesting thread though
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Woodbloke » 05 Feb 2017, 14:07

9fingers wrote:I feel that any significant air leak around the collection bin would defeat the cyclonic separation action and as filter cleaning is such a PITA, I don't feel that inclined to prove this!

Bob

Thanks Bob, interesting to get hold of another perspective. Any air leaks below the cyclone are a big 'non' (so I was advised) but on the positive side, if I take five minutes to shake out the Camvac cloth filter, that's three minutes too long :D - Rob
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 05 Feb 2017, 17:18

Am I right in my assumption that a PRV trigger under a HP system is likely to suck up more debris than with LP?

Is so then what we need is a PRV that switches off the extractor. Does such a thing exist for a reasonable outlay?
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby 9fingers » 05 Feb 2017, 17:30

Andyp wrote:Am I right in my assumption that a PRV trigger under a HP system is likely to suck up more debris than with LP?


Quite possibly but based on my set up, I don't think there is any need for a PRV in a HVLP system

Andyp wrote:Is so then what we need is a PRV that switches off the extractor. Does such a thing exist for a reasonable outlay?


I would expect you need to make one. I suggest that a lever microswitch fitted to your PRV and wired in series with the drive to your relay coil (your favourite subject lol) should do nicely.

One of many examples https://www.amazon.co.uk/Micro-Limit-Sw ... itch+lever

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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 05 Feb 2017, 17:48

9fingers wrote:
Andyp wrote:Am I right in my assumption that a PRV trigger under a HP system is likely to suck up more debris than with LP?


Quite possibly but based on my set up, I don't think there is any need for a PRV in a HVLP system
Bob


Precisely the point I was hoping to make.

9fingers][quote="Andyp wrote:Is so then what we need is a PRV that switches off the extractor. Does such a thing exist for a reasonable outlay?


I would expect you need to make one. I suggest that a lever microswitch fitted to your PRV and wired in series with the drive to your relay coil (your favourite subject lol) should do nicely.

One of many examples https://www.amazon.co.uk/Micro-Limit-Sw ... itch+lever
Bob[/quote]

I was thinking more of replacing the valve with a pressure or vacuum switch, (a brief google leaves me confused as to which), that would switch off the extractor before any destructive damage was done to either dropbox or cyclone.
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby 9fingers » 05 Feb 2017, 18:41

What ever sensing method you decide on is not likely to be capable of taking the extractor current so will need to be wired into your relay system via the coil.

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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 06 Feb 2017, 10:05

9fingers wrote:What ever sensing method you decide on is not likely to be capable of taking the extractor current so will need to be wired into your relay system via the coil.

Bob


I was afraid of that. Always likely to be a weak point in my plan. (my abilities not the relay itself) :D
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby 9fingers » 06 Feb 2017, 10:07

Andyp wrote:
9fingers wrote:What ever sensing method you decide on is not likely to be capable of taking the extractor current so will need to be wired into your relay system via the coil.

Bob


I was afraid of that. Always likely to be a weak point in my plan. (my abilities not the relay itself) :D

Maybe look at it from the point of view that your system is adequately prepared for future sensory enhancement!!
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 Feb 2017, 13:00

Woodbloke wrote:...whereupon the vacuum almost squashed the barrel flat :o :shock: and ripped off the top of the old dustbin lid separator which I had to re-silicon back in place.

I've since replaced the PRV and it's super sensitive as I only use a tiny 8mm magnet….


I bloody told you, TWICE, but no, you had to listen to someone else rather than the man who learned the hard way didn't you!?!

Well maybe that'll learn you, I don't waste my typing fingers for no reason you know…! :evil:

;)

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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Woodbloke » 06 Feb 2017, 23:54

TrimTheKing wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:...whereupon the vacuum almost squashed the barrel flat :o :shock: and ripped off the top of the old dustbin lid separator which I had to re-silicon back in place.

I've since replaced the PRV and it's super sensitive as I only use a tiny 8mm magnet….


I bloody told you, TWICE, but no, you had to listen to someone else rather than the man who learned the hard way didn't you!?!

Well maybe that'll learn you, I don't waste my typing fingers for no reason you know…! :evil:

;)

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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 Feb 2017, 23:56




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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 23 Feb 2017, 10:30

Well I now know that I have definitely improved the suck on my system. The previous tests were just picking up stuff from the floor but yesterday I tried to use the bandsaw. It is only a small desktop Inca with a 2.5" port. As soon as I switched on the extractor the pressure relief valve blew. This had never happened before which means there must have been some ingress of air.
I had bought a selection of magnets when I made the valve so I fitted a larger one and all is well.
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Woodbloke » 25 Feb 2017, 11:57

Andyp wrote: I tried to use the bandsaw. It is only a small desktop Inca with a 2.5" port. As soon as I switched on the extractor the pressure relief valve blew.


Unless my logic has gone completely ga-ga (which it's wont to do at times) this suggests to me that there's some sort of blockage in the system, n'est pas? On my big Onedia there's a PRV fitted on top of the drum (see part 4 of my series on Dust Extraction http://knowledge.axminster.co.uk/dust-e ... cs-part-4/ and it only uses a teeny weeny 8mm magnet. When I had all the blast gates shut with no PRV fitted and switched on the Camvac the water butt imploded :shock: :o :shock: and ripped off the top of the old dustbin extractor lid that was siliconed onto it.
My conclusion is that a PRV works really well, but you need the blast gates shut or a blockage somewhere to make it operate. Could be wrong though and frequently is :D - Rob
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 25 Feb 2017, 13:12

Rob,
When you have a moment try slowly closing the only open blast gate. I bet the the PRV will trip before the gate is fully closed.
If my maths are correct reducing 100mm tube down to the 63.5mm on the BS gives a reduction in surface area of well over half.
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Woodbloke » 25 Feb 2017, 14:38

Andyp wrote:Rob,
When you have a moment try slowly closing the only open blast gate. I bet the the PRV will trip before the gate is fully closed.
If my maths are correct reducing 100mm tube down to the 63.5mm on the BS gives a reduction in surface area of well over half.

Thanks Andy, that explains it. I'll try your experiment and see if it works - Rob

Edit - not even halfway closed and the PRV tripped - Rob
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Andyp » 25 Feb 2017, 18:46

Woodbloke wrote:
Andyp wrote:Rob,
When you have a moment try slowly closing the only open blast gate. I bet the the PRV will trip before the gate is fully closed.
If my maths are correct reducing 100mm tube down to the 63.5mm on the BS gives a reduction in surface area of well over half.

Thanks Andy, that explains it. I'll try your experiment and see if it works - Rob

Edit - not even halfway closed and the PRV tripped - Rob


This is one of the drawbacks of using a high pressure system ie not being able to reduce down the intake for smaller tools. Of course this is not too much of a problem with all the heavy iron you are now using. :D

Thanks for the mention in your BS review. ;)

As I have two of your old machines I would be happy to help out next time you feel the need to upgrade. :)
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Re: Cyclone dropbox repair

Postby Woodbloke » 26 Feb 2017, 15:52

Andyp wrote:
As I have two of your old machines I would be happy to help out next time you feel the need to upgrade. :)


Not for some considerable time, unless I go for a wider p/t later on. Who knows.... - Rob
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