It is currently 29 Mar 2024, 12:35

Problem with unusual door frame

This forum is for any general questions, queries or plain old chinwaggery on Woody stuff in general.

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Andyp » 16 Mar 2017, 11:04

I always thought the the traditional braces had notches cut into them which if hung correctly would tighten up with the weight of the door.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11722
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby 9fingers » 16 Mar 2017, 11:46

Andyp wrote:I always thought the the traditional braces had notches cut into them which if hung correctly would tighten up with the weight of the door.


Yes and vitally, the braces go from the free edge, upper end to the hinge edge, lower end thus keeping each brace in compression when supporting the full weight of the door.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10041
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby TrimTheKing » 16 Mar 2017, 12:36

Yep, but because this is a composite door they are, in this instance, purely aesthetics. While it's annoying to us who know it 'looks' wrong, the door is no less structurally sound because of it.

Just have to accept that your OCD can't fix this one… ;)

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7570
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 16 Mar 2017, 19:02

Andyp wrote:I always thought the the traditional braces had notches cut into them which if hung correctly would tighten up with the weight of the door.


There is variation in the construction of ledge doors, if you look around old farm buildings that still exist in original form you may find quite a few still have original ledge doors with no braces.

Some newer or replacement ledge doors do have braces and you may also find some older ones with braces too.

As for letting the brace into the ledge, it was sometimes practiced but not always. One reason the brace is let into a ledge is to allow the brace to sits square on a ledge that may have been beveled. If the ledge has been beveled you will need to chop the brace into the ledge to remove to slope on the ledge if you want it to form a square joint with the edge of the ledge.

One of the problems with letting the brace into the ledge is it often becomes a water trap on external doors and caused a lot of rot at the joint.

I will take a picture of a couple of very old ledge doors hung on the barn we are working on and post them tomorrow Andy, just for interest.

Mark
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Andyp » 16 Mar 2017, 20:46

Thanks Mark. Ever since moving here I have noticed the varying ways in which the tradition french window shutters are made. Effective braced and ledge doors. I have repaired 4 pairs of shutters so far. Keeping the hardwood braces and replacing the softwood T&G boards, only the bottom 6 inches of which were rotten but the way they were fixed meant replacing all the boards.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11722
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby timothyedoran » 16 Mar 2017, 21:28

My back door to our house is ledge construction with no brace. The wood that has been used is the same that was used to make some internal walls. My cottage was made in 1904 and the door is original. I had to replace the frame because it was rotten but supprisingly the door was not. I couldn't face having to get a custom made short narrow door made specially.

It had a massive cat flap in the bottom, so when i replaced the frame i flipped the door and put a pane of glass in the hole and fitted another normal cat flap. I hope it will do another 100 years.

I shall try and find a photo
timothyedoran
Sapling
 
Posts: 253
Joined: 21 Jan 2017, 10:48
Location: Bath
Name: Tim Doran

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Mike G » 16 Mar 2017, 21:54

meccarroll wrote:......There is variation in the construction of ledge doors, if you look around old farm buildings that still exist in original form you may find quite a few still have original ledge doors with no braces........


This isn't about age........it's about what buildings the doors hang in. Basically, houses and cottages typically had ledged doors, and outbuildings had ledged-and-braced doors. I'm not a fan of ledged-and-braced doors in houses, because of this history.
User avatar
Mike G
Sequoia
 
Posts: 9838
Joined: 30 Jul 2014, 22:36
Location: Suffolk
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby timothyedoran » 17 Mar 2017, 10:38

Here is a photo of my door.

Image
image storage online
timothyedoran
Sapling
 
Posts: 253
Joined: 21 Jan 2017, 10:48
Location: Bath
Name: Tim Doran

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 17 Mar 2017, 20:16

timothyedoran wrote:Here is a photo of my door.

Image
image storage online



Looks like you take good care of the paintwork on your door.

Mark
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby timothyedoran » 17 Mar 2017, 20:21

meccarroll wrote:
timothyedoran wrote:Here is a photo of my door.

Image
image storage online



Looks like you take good care of the paintwork on your door.

Mark

Indeed i do. I secretly enjoy gloss painting.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
timothyedoran
Sapling
 
Posts: 253
Joined: 21 Jan 2017, 10:48
Location: Bath
Name: Tim Doran

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 17 Mar 2017, 20:49

Andyp wrote:Thanks Mark. Ever since moving here I have noticed the varying ways in which the tradition french window shutters are made. Effective braced and ledge doors. I have repaired 4 pairs of shutters so far. Keeping the hardwood braces and replacing the softwood T&G boards, only the bottom 6 inches of which were rotten but the way they were fixed meant replacing all the boards.


Andy, as promised I took a picture of the door I mentioned so I could post it on here for you to see, I also took pictures of a couple of others doors too.

This is the door in the Barn I mentioned, it looks like an original door as the ledges were nailed using rose head nails, quite a traditional feature on older ledge doors.
Image

Here is a picture of the outer face of the door showing a close up of the rose head nails used in constructing the door.
Image



Another door hung high on the barn, again no braces and traditional rose head nails.
Image

And yet another door this time on one of the outbuildings I am working on, this one has a brace attached and is a replacement of an original. You can tell it's a replacement because the nails used in it's construction are modern round head wire nails.

Image


Photo of the face of the door showing the round head wire nails used in it's construction.

Image

Hope you found the pictures of interest.

Mark
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Andyp » 18 Mar 2017, 08:48

Indeed I did Mark, thanks. In that first, oldest door, why do you think they chose to mount the hinges on the boards rather than the ledges?
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11722
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Rod » 18 Mar 2017, 12:09

Very interesting

Rod
User avatar
Rod
Old Oak
 
Posts: 4471
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:34
Location: Winchester, Hampshire
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 19 Mar 2017, 09:24

Andyp wrote:Indeed I did Mark, thanks. In that first, oldest door, why do you think they chose to mount the hinges on the boards rather than the ledges?


To be honest, Andy, I really don't know the reason for placing the hinges on the boards rather then on the ledges. I have been working on site and in workshops for over 40 years and in that time have seen may variations in personal technique applied to both carpentry and joinery.

Sometimes carpenters/joiners use a set construction technique for all cases, which may or may not be correctly applied but as they see it used in general practice think it's the correct method to apply to all cases.

The area of Uk that I work in is called East Anglia and all of the joinery workshops that I have worked in have apply braces to ledge doors also to framed and ledge doors as a matter of course, my father worked in Lancashire and the same practice applied in the joinery shops he worked in. Detailing such as notching in bracing etc may or may not be practiced locally/individually.

Please see picture below of a replacement, framed ledge and braced door, which has been made by a local joinery company for the renovation of the barns I am working on:

Image

In this example the joinery company have applied braces and have not notched them in to the ledges. The ledges have a stopped bevel applied just short of where the brace intersects with the ledge. Notice how the brace abuts both ledge and stile. These door will face externally with ledges internal.

Can you see a better way of applying the brace?

Mark

(Bob, take a deep breath) :eusa-doh:
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 14 Apr 2017, 10:37

Just an update to what is now an old post. Pictures of the new door in place after lowering the existing frame to allow the door to clear the ceiling when opened.

Door fit two weeks ago.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Bob you will notice the braces have been put on the correct side :) they were supplied loose and uncut for site fitting. Pity the rest of the doors could not be supplied with loose bracing too.

Mark
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Rod » 14 Apr 2017, 10:54

Nice job looks good

Rod
User avatar
Rod
Old Oak
 
Posts: 4471
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:34
Location: Winchester, Hampshire
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby 9fingers » 14 Apr 2017, 14:27

meccarroll wrote:J

Bob you will notice the braces have been put on the correct side :) they were supplied loose and uncut for site fitting. Pity the rest of the doors could not be supplied with loose bracing too.

Mark


Perfick! that looks a smashing job Mark and easy on the eye (well my eye anyway!) for having the braces fitted properly.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10041
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby TrimTheKing » 14 Apr 2017, 17:33

All turned out nice again.

Cheers
Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7570
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Woodster » 14 Apr 2017, 18:22

Nice job Mark. ;)
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby MattS » 14 Apr 2017, 20:46

Nice job, although if all the other doors have the braces on the other side. Maybe being the right side is in this instance the wrong side?!
MattS
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 771
Joined: 04 Jul 2016, 10:05
Location: In the Weald of Kent
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Pinch » 14 Apr 2017, 21:02

Nicely done Mark. I reckons you've earned a couple of Bertie Bassets there chap. 8-)
In my previous life, I was a tree.
User avatar
Pinch
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2808
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 21:59
Location: Shropshire.
Name: Paul

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby Paul200 » 15 Apr 2017, 10:12

Andyp wrote:Indeed I did Mark, thanks. In that first, oldest door, why do you think they chose to mount the hinges on the boards rather than the ledges?

I'm no expert but could it be because the boards are flush with the door frame and the ledges protrude too far?

Paul

Edit - ...and I've just noticed I'm a month late with my response. I always was a bit slow .....
User avatar
Paul200
Seedling
 
Posts: 45
Joined: 04 Feb 2017, 11:30
Location: Galloway
Name: Paul

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 15 Apr 2017, 10:45

Paul200 wrote:
Andyp wrote:Indeed I did Mark, thanks. In that first, oldest door, why do you think they chose to mount the hinges on the boards rather than the ledges?

I'm no expert but could it be because the boards are flush with the door frame and the ledges protrude too far?

Paul

Edit - ...and I've just noticed I'm a month late with my response. I always was a bit slow .....


I guess the carpenter who could tell us may not be around now.

Mark
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 15 Apr 2017, 10:57

Pinch wrote:Nicely done Mark. I reckons you've earned a couple of Bertie Bassets there chap. 8-)


There has been a sub-contract carpentry comp on this job doing the bulk of the woodwork, a kitchen company making and fitting the kitchen, stair company doing you know what, joinery company making frames ledge and braced barn doors and a load of factory made joinery in the house too. I'm mainly doing the bits and pieces so not too many brownie points to be earned I'm afraid but it's paying the bills ;)

Mark
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

Re: Problem with unusual door frame

Postby meccarroll » 15 Apr 2017, 11:10

MattS wrote:Nice job, although if all the other doors have the braces on the other side. Maybe being the right side is in this instance the wrong side?!


Or you might say, in this case, all the doors braced opposite to this door are braced on the wrong side making this door correctly braced........you decide :text-lol:

Mark
meccarroll
Sapling
 
Posts: 423
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:45
Name:

PreviousNext

Return to General Woodworking

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests