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Seat rail to chair leg joint

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Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Mike G » 25 Nov 2017, 19:53

I'm already planning next year's furniture making, and the biggest single item is a dining set (table and chairs). I'm thinking about the joints, and wondered if anyone has ever seen a wedged through-tenon where the seat rail joins the leg? It seems to me that this would be the strongest joint for the most vulnerable part of a chair, so why wouldn't this joint be used?
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby 9fingers » 25 Nov 2017, 20:54

Mike G wrote:I'm already planning next year's furniture making, and the biggest single item is a dining set (table and chairs). I'm thinking about the joints, and wondered if anyone has ever seen a wedged through-tenon where the seat rail joins the leg? It seems to me that this would be the strongest joint for the most vulnerable part of a chair, so why wouldn't this joint be used?


I've not seen it Mike. Many commercial chairs use twin dowels and I suspect this aims to maximise the strength of the leg where two seat rails have to join the leg in close proximity.

I've used non through M&T on dining chairs but the legs were fairly sturdy at around 40mm square oak.

Another reason could well be that most designers would not want a visible jointing method as often form over function rules.

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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Mike G » 26 Nov 2017, 00:40

This will be 45 x 45 oak at least, so it can afford to have a mortise through it. Take the turning away and they'll be somewhat like these:
[url]
https://www.earlyoakreproductions.co.uk ... t-3883.php[/url]
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby 9fingers » 26 Nov 2017, 11:51

45 x 45 should be pretty strong but I can't quite visualise how two seat rails will join to the leg both with through mortices but I sure you have a plan!

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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Doug » 26 Nov 2017, 12:20

You do see the joint used in some medieval seats, I imagine it isn’t used in more modern furniture as the general design of chairs has become much more delicate since those times.
From a practical point of view Bob makes a good point also clamping such a joint would be awkward as pressure would have to be applied under the joint which wouldn’t be ideal on small sections, though on chunky sections that wouldn’t be a problem.
Also with the exception of carver chairs you couldn’t use the through wedged tenon on the front legs so as these are under as much pressure as the back joints ( with a few exceptions) is it worth doing on the back when you can’t do the front.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Rod » 26 Nov 2017, 12:58

We’ve got some “Tudor” style chairs from two different makers - they don’t have any through joints.

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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby MJ80 » 26 Nov 2017, 13:35

The lizardman (Yorkshire critter) set my parent have uses draw bored m&t. Looks lovely.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Dave R » 26 Nov 2017, 16:03

Question: You'll have two rails meeting the leg at the same point. Would you see both tenons going through? If so, ho will they look? Ignoring the strength issue for a moment, think about the aesthetics. blind mortises allow options for the tenons that you don't get with through mortises.

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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Stargazer » 26 Nov 2017, 17:07

Readings Mike's original comment, what I had visualised in my head was the front and rear rails with a wide blind tenon but with a hole in the side of the tenon, the side rail would then be through tenoned in the leg
but with the tenon reduced in size (haunched?) to that the narrower part goes through the front tenon (draw-bored?) and emerges out the front of the leg where it can be wedged. This would only be visible on the front and rear as a wedged joint, but the blind side joints would be draw bored.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Mike G » 26 Nov 2017, 19:05

The side rail is the important one, and that is the one that would go through. The back rail has another rail just 4 inches up, and a further rail towards to top and another at the bottom of the leg, so only need a little stub tenon and maybe some dowels to hold it in place. It isn't actually doing very much at all structurally. Here are the sort of thing I am planning (without the turning, before anyone gets giddy):

https://www.earlyoakreproductions.co.uk/furniture/dining-sets/oak-pedestal-table-and-dining-chairs-berwick-range/product-3883.php

https://www.earlyoakreproductions.co.uk/furniture/seating/solid-seat-chairs/product-355.php
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby chataigner » 28 Nov 2017, 23:03

Ignoring for a moment the question of which form of M&T to use, the strength for any of them is a function of several factors : surface area of tenon, quality of fit, glue performance etc.

It is possible to increase the strength of any side rail to leg joint by simply increasing the depth of the side rail to give a larger tenon - that's what I did on my chairs which have stood the test of time and abuse.

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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Dave R » 28 Nov 2017, 23:43

chataigner wrote:Ignoring for a moment the question of which form of M&T to use, the strength for any of them is a function of several factors : surface area of tenon, quality of fit, glue performance etc.

It is possible to increase the strength of any side rail to leg joint by simply increasing the depth of the side rail to give a larger tenon - that's what I did on my chairs which have stood the test of time and abuse.

Image


Nice work. Looks like a chair by Kevin Rodel.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby chataigner » 29 Nov 2017, 08:46

That's right, it's based on the Rodel design that appeared in FWW some years ago. I picked it because I liked the design of the back, but also because Rodel has managed, by curving the side rails, to incorporate large tenons (as above) without making the overall style too heavy.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Dave R » 29 Nov 2017, 11:27

Very good. I did a model of the chair years ago.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Mike G » 29 Nov 2017, 14:12

David , could you give me the measurement across the back legs, and across the front legs, please. Outside to outside......essentially the width of the chair at the front and at the back.

I've taken to measuring most chairs and tables that I sit at recently, to try to get my design just right.
Last edited by Mike G on 29 Nov 2017, 16:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Dave R » 29 Nov 2017, 14:38

I'll dig up the model when I get home from work this evening and pass on the dimensions.
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Dave R » 30 Nov 2017, 02:01

Mike, does this tell you what you want to know?
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Re: Seat rail to chair leg joint

Postby Mike G » 30 Nov 2017, 08:17

Thanks Dave, that's perfect.
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