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M&T My way

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M&T My way

Postby 9fingers » 03 Sep 2018, 21:23

We had some recent posts showing hand cut M&T joints but as a contrast, here is how I do mine.

First key thing is keep the hand chisels in the drawer - you just don't need them! :D

Second thing is to prepare all the stock to exact lengths and faces square with the usual sequence of table saw, planer and thicknesser. If you have a hand plane and it is a warm day, use it to prop the workshop door open. You don't need to use it :lol:

Lets assume you have the morticer set up with the table so the chisel point is on the centre line of where you want the mortice and lock the axis. Using a piece of scrap do a test cut and mark the chisel to about 1mm deeper than your tenons will be cut.
I like to do the mortices first as that give a reference when it comes to set up the tenon cutting.

Footstool 003.jpg
HCM
(353.2 KiB)


You should be able to make out the marked line on the chisel body.

It is simply a case of chopping out the waste to the depth of the line.

My tenons will be 40mm wide 25mm deep and thickness to match the mortice cut by the 1/2" chisel.
I am aiming for a mortice about 0.5mm oversize and 26mm deep. You don't want them so tight that the glue is scraped off when the joint is assembled and neither do you want be hammering them home during dry fitting.

Turning to the tenons. Make sure the mitre gauge on your saw is spot on 90 degrees to the table slot and the blade is dead on parallel with the slot. i.e. as it always should be!

Set the fence so the tooth tips furthest from the fence are 25mm from the fence and lock the fence.

Most normal blades will be ground with alternate top bevel and mine is no different. Looking closely at this photo, you can see the profile of the cut is like a capital M.

Footstool 007.jpg
Close up shoulder
(187.2 KiB)


The aim should be to slightly undercut the tenon with the shoulder cuts.

Once set up the cuts can be run though very quickly with no marking or measuring.

Footstool 008.jpg
Shoulders cut
(265.81 KiB)


Now for one on my favourite table saw jigs, The tenon jig. There are a few available in UK and rutlands run an offer a couple of times per year. This is a genuine Delta one I got in the states.

Footstool 005.jpg
Tenon jig 2
(291.83 KiB)


Footstool 004.jpg
Tenon jig 1
(270.26 KiB)


The jig should be set initially so the tenon is just too thick cutting on both faces and then creep up with the adjustment (remember the thickness is reduced by twice the amount you adjust the jig) The correct setting is when the tenon will slide into the mortice freely but with no shake.
Lock all the settings and run all the cheek cuts. Spot on every time again no measurements.

Footstool 006.jpg
cheek cut
(229.6 KiB)


Use similar methods to set up and make the cuts that define the tenon widths.

Offer all the parts up in a dry fit to verify all is well. The joints should all pull up square with out force.

Footstool 002.jpg
Dryfit
(310.07 KiB)


Various parts of this footstool will be handed and so to reduce the stress when it comes to the glue up, I've marked the parts unambiguously in locations that will be obscured in the finished piece.

Footstool 001.jpg
Marking
(246.56 KiB)


Thanks for looking

Bob
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Mike G » 03 Sep 2018, 21:35

Nah, you're doing the tenons all wrong. Radial arm saw with a stop, and bandsaw. ;)

Seriously for a second, the key thing for me is that you are doing actual joinery.......ie, making joints. I loath glorified butt joints with funny shaped dowels, so any way you want to make proper joints is fine by me. I used to use machinery for almost everything, but have moved back towards a more hand-tool orientated way of working as I've come to appreciate how much skill has been lost over the years.
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Re: M&T My way

Postby 9fingers » 03 Sep 2018, 21:55

Mike G wrote:Nah, you're doing the tenons all wrong. Radial arm saw with a stop, and bandsaw. ;)

Seriously for a second, the key thing for me is that you are doing actual joinery.......ie, making joints. I loath glorified butt joints with funny shaped dowels, so any way you want to make proper joints is fine by me. I used to use machinery for almost everything, but have moved back towards a more hand-tool orientated way of working as I've come to appreciate how much skill has been lost over the years.


Cheers Mike,
My background is research and development for production. I believe I am using skills in setting up the method and machinery once such that when the parts are being made it is nigh on impossible to make mistakes and no need for measurements and hence errors can creep in and you can make any number of piece and they will all be the same.
I too stay clear of dominoes. All of the costs associated with precision machinery and yet hand held and aimed to let in all the errors.

Bob


A bit of an aside:-
At work we had machines that measured the power consumption during the job and identified cutters becoming blunt where upon the machine would go to a reserve set of tooling to get a sharp cutter and send the old one for sharpening and resetting and this was 1980s technology
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Malc2098 » 03 Sep 2018, 22:08

Nice one, Bob! Well, four, actually.

My first proper piece of work in my 'shop will involve M&Ts and your post is just what I need!

Thanks.
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Robert » 03 Sep 2018, 22:12

Your way is my way too up to a point. Unguarded table saw blade is a situation of last resort in my book so tenons will be router table or bandsaw for me.
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Re: M&T My way

Postby 9fingers » 03 Sep 2018, 22:20

Robert wrote:Your way is my way too up to a point. Unguarded table saw blade is a situation of last resort in my book so tenons will be router table or bandsaw for me.


I agree that an unguarded saw blade needs respect but with the saw table tenon jig, the workpiece is clamped to the jig and your hands are on the two handles behind a dirty great lump of cast iron.

Everyone should work with methods that they are totally comfortable with.

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Re: M&T My way

Postby Andyp » 04 Sep 2018, 06:34

Is that the footstool Bob? I thought the lower edge of the rails was to be curved?

Accurate marking out and cutting are key whether by hand or tool. the end justifies the means.

If I could have got a tenon jig for my kity 419 I would have.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Rod » 04 Sep 2018, 08:30

Agree Bob - I cut mortices using my WoodRat ( ie Router ) and tenons on my Bandsaw.
I often leave the mortice Ends rounded and quickly rasp the tenons to match.

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Re: M&T My way

Postby 9fingers » 04 Sep 2018, 09:11

Andyp wrote:Is that the footstool Bob? I thought the lower edge of the rails was to be curved?

Accurate marking out and cutting are key whether by hand or tool. the end justifies the means.

If I could have got a tenon jig for my kity 419 I would have.


Andy, yes it is the footstool and the wide rails will become curved in the next few days. This thread was aimed at the M&T aspects to start with but I expect it will mutate into describing the rest of the project. :D

My methods are geared around the absolute minimum of marking out. Therein lies a source of errors. Let the machine with jigs, stops etc define the dimensions. I make marks to show tops, show faces, and any handed features and precious little else.

A tenon jig can be fitted to any table saw with guide slots.

Cheers
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Andyp » 04 Sep 2018, 12:36

9fingers wrote:A tenon jig can be fitted to any table saw with guide slots.


I am sure Bob, at the time when one would have been useful there was not one available for the narrow slots on the Kity and I had neither skills nor inclination try and get some bar made to fit the slot.
So I make mine with the nibble "method". Cut the shoulders as you do then make multiple passes over the blade and break off the waste with a chisel.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
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Re: M&T My way

Postby 9fingers » 04 Sep 2018, 13:31

Andyp wrote:
9fingers wrote:A tenon jig can be fitted to any table saw with guide slots.


I am sure Bob, at the time when one would have been useful there was not one available for the narrow slots on the Kity and I had neither skills nor inclination try and get some bar made to fit the slot.
So I make mine with the nibble "method". Cut the shoulders as you do then make multiple passes over the blade and break off the waste with a chisel.


I quite often use the nibble method for quick jobs.

For our light/hobby use, hardwood guide bars are adequate and much easier to make.

Bob
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Woodbloke » 04 Sep 2018, 13:37

Mike G wrote:Nah, you're doing the tenons all wrong.


Absolutely Mike, all you really need is a Domino :lol: - Rob
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Rod » 04 Sep 2018, 13:39

Or a nice tenon saw

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Re: M&T My way

Postby Coley » 04 Sep 2018, 17:55

Looks like you honed and perfected that method Bob. Can't beat a good quick methodical process.

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Re: M&T My way

Postby RogerS » 04 Sep 2018, 23:10

I always wonder about those tenon jigs with long pieces. For starters you are limited to the maximum length of stock you can stick in before hitting the ceiling.

But long before that I'd be worried about keeping the stock perfectly vertical.
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Re: M&T My way

Postby 9fingers » 05 Sep 2018, 09:13

RogerS wrote:I always wonder about those tenon jigs with long pieces. For starters you are limited to the maximum length of stock you can stick in before hitting the ceiling.

But long before that I'd be worried about keeping the stock perfectly vertical.


I'm limited to around 1.7m by my ceiling height but I rarely find that a problem and can use other methods for long stock.
Keeping the job vertical has never been a problem. Firstly the end is always perfectly square cut and smooth and the jig clamps the stock vertical.
The handles on the jig are close (but not too close!) to where you are cutting so there is little force trying to tilt the workpiece off vertical.

I can see the method would not be ideal for your recent orangery project where your stock was probably 2.5 - 3m long, where I would have used a dado head in a RAS for the job.

Bob
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Mike G » 05 Sep 2018, 09:52

:lol: I'm trying to imagine balancing a 2.4 metre length of 150x150 green oak on your jig!! Oh, and never minding the fact that it isn't straight, square, or regular anywhere, with no reference face or edge. That square end you're sitting it on.........what's that square too? Now, having got it up there and recovered from your subsequent back operation, how are you going to push it through the blade? :lol:
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Re: M&T My way

Postby Coley » 05 Sep 2018, 09:58

Mike G wrote: I'm trying to imagine balancing a 2.4 metre length of 150x150 green oak on your jig!! Oh, and never minding the fact that it isn't straight, square, or regular anywhere, with no reference face or edge. That square end you're sitting it on.........what's that square too? Now, having got it up there and recovered from your subsequent back operation, how are you going to push it through the blade?
I've got a tenoner Mike but wouldn't think of using it for green oak. I think a bit of common sense is necessary here -know the limitations

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