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Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Mar 2021, 15:38

Cabinetman wrote:But how do you transpose that into something on the bench?


A good question. You turn to other YouTube videos and Instagram accounts and gradually piece it all together (hopefully).

For example, here...

and here


From another part of the drawing I have the overall size in the other dimension of the timber I need plus the all-critical bevel line.
Image
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Cabinetman » 03 Mar 2021, 16:18

Well Roger, I think you ought to bring your tools, bench and bandsaw into the hallway so you can run up and down the stairs to check as you go, whilst I open a nice bottle of Rioja and sit back to watch the progress.
By the way when you succeed as I’m sure you will, you will henceforth be called Gunga Din, as in "you’re a better man than I am Gunga Din" :text-lol:
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Mar 2021, 16:26

Cabinetman wrote:Well Roger, I think you ought to bring your tools, bench and bandsaw into the hallway so you can run up and down the stairs to check as you go, whilst I open a nice bottle of Rioja and sit back to watch the progress.
By the way when you succeed as I’m sure you will, you will henceforth be called Gunga Din, as in "you’re a better man than I am Gunga Din" :text-lol:


:D The only two critical things are the two ends matching up with the existing handrails and from what I can gather the cuts are normal 90 degree cuts on the mitre-saw. The bit in the middle is the 'fluffy' bit and as long as it looks and feels OK then job done.
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby TrimTheKing » 03 Mar 2021, 17:20

RogerS wrote:Image


I didn't go through the whole process but that drawing makes absolutely zero sense to me even having got a way through the process...

How the f*&k does that picture translate into...well, anything??!!
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Andyp » 03 Mar 2021, 17:24

The red square in the middle is a post-it note holder. Apart from that I’m lost too.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Mar 2021, 17:32

I know. It's magic ! I simply followed the excellent instructions in the link I gave.
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby TrimTheKing » 03 Mar 2021, 18:43

RogerS wrote:I know. It's magic ! I simply followed the excellent instructions in the link I gave.


I get that, but what is that diagram showing? Is it the whole curve? The handrail profile? What? I can't see either of those things in that pic and frankly haven't the time in my life to go an watch all of the steps right now.
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Mar 2021, 19:19

This is what I need to make at that quarter-turn.
Image

If you look at the first 40 seconds of this video, it might help make things clearer..
.

What I need to know is the shape of the curve that is shown on the 'box'. All those lines in my diagram end up producing it shown here

Image

But the other thing that happens is that the rail twists about its axis as it goes round that bend and I need to know the overall envelope of wood required that will allow me to 'twist' the wreath by carving and bandsawing etc.

That information is given by the red coloured block ..it also shows the actual profile of the hand rail and twist orientation at one end.

Image

The actual outline of the wreath that needs to be cut away is actually drawn in by hand to follow the curve (discussed at the top of this post).

And here in this short video you can see him starting to shape the wreath following the lines that he pencilled in.



Hope that makes it a bit clearer.
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby jimmy s » 03 Mar 2021, 19:22

Its not showing the whole surface development of the top surface Mark.

Looks like you have it figured out Roger!
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby TrimTheKing » 03 Mar 2021, 21:23

Yep, I watched the videos and it now makes sense what he's doing and any. The how, in terms of the geometry still eludes me but that's because I haven't properly digested it, and have no inclination to right now, but I'm enjoying understanding that it exists and watching you do it.

Will be cool watching this unfold. :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Malc2098 » 03 Mar 2021, 21:29

Time for another glass, Roger.

But this one, although it's all CNC, does show how the laminations can fit together, and also the order of carving.

Yours starts at 2.40. I haven't worked out how to load a YT vid at the a specified time.

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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Mar 2021, 22:37

Love those machines. Did get a quote from a company but mucho, mucho pricey. And not convinced that what they were offering was what we were hoping for. When I asked for clarification, answer there came back none.
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Steve Maskery » 04 Mar 2021, 22:42

Sorry I'm late. I was going to suggest exactly what Dave did.....
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby sunnybob » 27 Mar 2021, 18:29

I quite like stainless steel tube and glass panels.

Or am I showing my philistine side? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Robert » 02 Apr 2021, 23:06

So all i was trying to do was understand the problem. Solving it is another matter.

I drew a staircase with some made up sizes. The pictures that follow are in pairs with a view of the same thing from both sides.

This is the corner with extended square section handrails just to show they don't intersect.
Image

Image

Then there is the tangent thing for a curved corner. The tangent circle could be any radius and still match to two handrails. So there has to be a decision on what the radius will be and I thought 150mm outside might do it. So with some textures added here is a 300mm dia column.
Image

Image

Now because of the turn for the landing there is a height increase at the corner without any forward travel. That means there needs to be a curve in the vertical direction as well as rotating round the corner. So I modified the cylinder to be a curved cornered right angle with the sides extended to what might cover all of the corner 'wreath' piece.
Image

Image

And that was as far as I got before dinner and I've not been back to it since. Can't help thinking there must be many ways to make the ends meet and this must be where reference books on best practice must help.
I may play with it some more but I'm thinking now it is as much art as geometry.
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Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Apr 2021, 08:25

That's one of the best visual presentations of the issues faced with tangent hand-railing that I've seen, Robert.

If I could suggest one small improvement then that would be to increase the vertical separation between the two handrails as they actually appear to be touching in some of the images.
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Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Robert » 03 Apr 2021, 09:59

The handrails do slightly clash when extended. Handrails are 80mm square and step height is 150mm. both rails are the same height above their stair string.

I just extended them again and hid the wreath lump then added a vertical line through the rails. They clash yet the vertical height difference measures 150mm. The rails may be 80mm square but rotated to my 40 degree stair angle they increase in vertical height. Guess that combined with turning a corner is why they clash slightly.

Went to sleep last night thinking how to draw a path between the rail ends. Not sure I'll get time to try it today or even if it was a good idea :)
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Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Malc2098 » 03 Apr 2021, 10:31

Robert, Roger, I've been following this from the start with very little to offer, but amazed at the brain power being applied to the problem. I even ended up thinking about this in bed last night!!!! :o

Robert, in your image No2, it looks as if the lower handrail were moved less than its own width toward the middle of the treads, then they would intersect. Or am I way off and should treat myself to some proper sleep tonight?!
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Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Robert » 03 Apr 2021, 10:41

It's deceiving Malc. The difference is 150mm vertical so that movement would not be small.

if anyone wants to have a play here is the sketchup file - http://www.argand.co.uk/pixs/TWH2/stair%20messing.skp
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Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby 9fingers » 03 Apr 2021, 10:44

Maybe easiest to come out of the CAD world at this stage.

Decide on a comfortable radius in the plan view and make up this piece

Image

Then run some elastic round from the lower end of the upper hand rail to the top of the lower handrail get the shape of the top edge of the wreath.

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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Apr 2021, 11:09

The only realistic way to do this with the height difference is to have an easing as has already been suggested.

But how to do the drawing ? The pain, suffering and general angst can be found over on woodwork.co.uk here .

You draw the two pitch lines separate at the height difference. In my case, 192mm. You then have to decide how much of that height difference is taken up by the wreath and that by the easing. It's a compromise. Too much one way or the other and the length of the wreath gets very long and twisty. Settling for 2/3 wreath and 1/3 easing gives me this. I'm actually quite quick and drawing these now ...about 20-25 minutes.

tangent handrail drawing overview.png
(2.29 MiB)


From the drawing I can measure off the length of easing required and the curve (radius approx 860mm) and the face mould. The two bevels are also drawn.

The next pitfall is actually applying this to the blank from which the wreath will come. I got very close again last night to binning the whole thing ....details available later with pictures on the main staircase thread.
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Re: Is a wreath just a pretty bit of infill ?

Postby Cabinetman » 03 Apr 2021, 11:16

9fingers wrote:Maybe easiest to come out of the CAD world at this stage.

Decide on a comfortable radius in the plan view and make up this piece

Image

Then run some elastic round from the lower end of the upper hand rail to the top of the lower handrail get the shape of the top edge of the wreath.

Bob

Yes time to get back into the real world. I remember saying at least a month ago that pictures are all very well but how do you get from there to reality? But at least that last picture really shows the way forward, it seems to me that a fair line just drawn on the outside of that white section joining them up is the way to go, so back to what I said on the other thread and reproduce the white bit with some King span placed between the two actual handrails in situ and sketch a few lines on and start to slice the waste away with a sharp blade. Pimps. Ian
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Apr 2021, 11:35

Or do it properly ;)

working the wreath.jpg
(144.05 KiB)
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby Cabinetman » 03 Apr 2021, 12:17

Very nice Roger but it’s still a drawing it’s not a 3-D solid to pick up and play with and reproduce, it would take you less than an hour to do as I have just suggested with the King span and then you would end up with one that looked like the 2nd to last drawing you just showed us, mind you then the fun really starts!
Do you have the two handrails mocked up in situ? Ian
Edit, yes you do, so no problem, off you go,
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Re: Making a set of tangent handrail drawings

Postby RogerS » 03 Apr 2021, 12:22

For proof-of-concept all you need is a lump of softwood.

Yesterday I cut out the face mould and put it on the blank.

Image

In the wrong orientation as I now realise.

I realised that I needed the easing in place and so I measured the slope at the end of the easing where it will join the wreath (50 degrees or so) and made a temporary block to represent the easing end thus..

Image

Marked up the two bevels on the wreath ends (incorrectly as well but we live and learn) and made a support so I could rest the wreath on the easing end and at the right twist so..

Image

That's when I realised that it turned in the wrong direction. Hey ho...let's press on, I thought. The end face on the other end of the wreath should continue on at an angle of 29 degrees. It does. But the bevels aren't vertical. That's when I went indoors for the day and got stuck into several bottles of beer to drown my sorrows.

But I shall persevere.

Now got the face mould the right way (mind you, I still don't understand why I've got to flip it but there you go.). Will shortly be going out and redoing the end bevels and offering it up again. If it's wrong, well, I do have some thick Kingspan !
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