It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 19:51

Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

This forum is for any general questions, queries or plain old chinwaggery on Woody stuff in general.

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Mike G » 04 Jan 2015, 21:28

Mark, your walls are going to end up 300mm thick, unless you go for some sort of timer frame construction. You can't build a 50mm block wall. They're for thickening up brickwork or whatever, not building a stand-alone skin. And your cavity in a masonry construction needs to be 100mm, which you can either fully fill with mineral wool, or half fill with Celotex. As for a timber-framed solution......well, believe it or not, I have never done one with a brick outer skin, but I think it is usually a 50mm cavity between the brick and the timber frame. That would give you a wall thickness of 260 or so, depending on what your inner face was lined with.
User avatar
Mike G
Sequoia
 
Posts: 9834
Joined: 30 Jul 2014, 22:36
Location: Suffolk
Name:

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 04 Jan 2015, 21:32

9fingers wrote:Mark,

You might need to think a bit further about the wall structure. Firstly to decide which skin will be the load bearer for the roof. You have a big area and wind and snow load need to be considered first as well as the dead load of the roof and storage. There will also be calcs to do for surface water run off.
I think there will be regional data for the wind, rain and snow amounts that need to be taken into consideration. An inch of rain is going to give you best part of 1000 litres of rainwater to dispose of and the BCO will want to see that flash storms are not going to lead to flooding. Round here new builds are not allowed to discharge surface water into foul drains - I got a rebate and a continuing discount on my drainage bill by proving I used soakaways throughout. You might even want to consider storing this water to recycle for washing machines, loo flushing etc

With some walls being 4m long, consideration of stability will be needed and maybe 50mm thermalite won't be enough let alone risking not meeting habitable insulation requirements. You can build piers at the door openings to add stiffness but you might need a pier midway along some walls which might be avoidable by using a 100mm inner leaf.

Under floor dust ducts?? Make sure you can still access them as they will be bound to block at some.
stage. Maybe one straight run from the TS to the nearest wall if you must.

Bob


Is it really that big an issue Bob? Not being funny but it's no bigger than Mike's and his is made of timber…! :eusa-think:

The larger area is going to be left vaulted as per Mike's and the smaller area will be joisted and boarded out for storage so I agree that part will need some thinking about and potentially pillars, but if the rest is tied together…?

Let's see what Mike has to say about it, and if it needs an architect or Civil engineer to do some drawings and calks then that's fine, I can deal with that through contacts.

Regarding drains, there are no mains drains around here at all as we're in the middle of fields. There is a rainwater sewer under the main road but nobody is allowed to tap into that any more because it's already overloaded and can't cope. Our foul water goes into the septic tank then the 'cleaned' water goes away to another chamber which is then pumped up to another chamber which then runs away into the field and down to a culvert at the bottom of the field. This was all done under planning and through the Environment Agencies beady gaze over 10 years ago so apart from the need to ensure BC are happy with me putting something into this building for a toilet then I can't see how I wouldn't be able to run into the same system, but will of course get that looked into too.

Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate the time everyone is taking to point things out and offer suggestions. I' would get nowhere otherwise :)

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 04 Jan 2015, 21:34

Mike G wrote:Mark, your walls are going to end up 300mm thick, unless you go for some sort of timer frame construction. You can't build a 50mm block wall. They're for thickening up brickwork or whatever, not building a stand-alone skin. And your cavity in a masonry construction needs to be 100mm, which you can either fully fill with mineral wool, or half fill with Celotex. As for a timber-framed solution......well, believe it or not, I have never done one with a brick outer skin, but I think it is usually a 50mm cavity between the brick and the timber frame. That would give you a wall thickness of 260 or so, depending on what your inner face was lined with.


Hmmmm, that's not what I wanted to hear! :eusa-doh:

I'm absolutely certain that the house up the road was brick outer and 50mm cavity then 100mm blocks because I remember taking a look as it was being built and it definitely wasn't 100mm cavity insulation, but I guess I'll have to have a look and see now…

So would another option be to do brick outer and timber inner? Would that keep things thinner, ignoring the habitability question as it seems that might be more hassle than it's worth thinking about.

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby 9fingers » 04 Jan 2015, 22:11

Mark, It is 35 years since I did roof calcs so can't recall the numbers but BCO required a ridiculous amount of snow load - far more than would ever stay on the pitched roof we had proposed and he added a wind load enough to blow the rest of the snow off.
I doubt if they have made it any easier over the years.
The difference is that whilst Mike's workshop is bound to be adequate, he was not trying to meet building regs but you are.
Now there maybe less stringent requirements for non habitable but you might have difficulty convincing non habitable intentions with the degree of sealing/insulation/water/drainage that you are proposing.

Mike is the man to know here - my knowledge is rusty 35 year old memories on a stupidly large dual beam that I had to fit to support the roof (10" x 4" plus 10" x 6" around 5m span).

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 04 Jan 2015, 22:41

9fingers wrote:The difference is that whilst Mike's workshop is bound to be adequate, he was not trying to meet building regs but you are.


Bob

That there is the kicker, I forgot Mike's didn't require BR! :eusa-doh:

I will post up measurements of the build as Mike said he would look at the roof details for me, so see what he says about that then I think I'll pay my mate a visit and get some Civil Eng advice.

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby RogerS » 04 Jan 2015, 22:43

TrimTheKing wrote:....
Regarding drains, there are no mains drains around here at all as we're in the middle of fields. There is a rainwater sewer under the main road but nobody is allowed to tap into that any more because it's already overloaded and can't cope. Our foul water goes into the septic tank then the 'cleaned' water goes away to another chamber which is then pumped up to another chamber which then runs away into the field and down to a culvert at the bottom of the field. .....
Mark



Ah, the joys of living on the side of a hill. The house might be sliding away but at least the land drain takes away the septic tank outlet :D

And the surplus surface water :D
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Mike G » 05 Jan 2015, 00:09

TrimTheKing wrote:
9fingers wrote:The difference is that whilst Mike's workshop is bound to be adequate, he was not trying to meet building regs but you are.


Bob

That there is the kicker, I forgot Mike's didn't require BR! :eusa-doh:

I will post up measurements of the build as Mike said he would look at the roof details for me, so see what he says about that then I think I'll pay my mate a visit and get some Civil Eng advice.

Cheers
Mark


You don't want a civil engineer, you want a structural engineer ;)

Actually these days I find that roof timber sizes are more often driven by insulation requirements than by loadings. I wouldn't worry too much at all about the walls, because they're small, and double skinned (although the details are not finalised. If they look in any way troublesome there are any number of ways of strengthening them. The roof timbers will either be designed by a truss manufacturer, or, if you are making your own roof (you should), you'll require a structural engineer's input. With a vaulted ceiling, you'll need the ridge beam calculated, that's all.
User avatar
Mike G
Sequoia
 
Posts: 9834
Joined: 30 Jul 2014, 22:36
Location: Suffolk
Name:

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 05 Jan 2015, 00:11

I knew it was one of them! ;)

Yeah I want to do the roof myself as per your encouragement... ;)

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Rod » 05 Jan 2015, 05:42

Careful I'm one of them - timber house roof trusses a bit mediocre to a MICE

Rod
User avatar
Rod
Old Oak
 
Posts: 4471
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:34
Location: Winchester, Hampshire
Name:

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Wizard9999 » 05 Jan 2015, 14:23

Hold your horses Mark! Do you actually need building regs? :eusa-think:

You say 37m2 external area. On your planning thread you said 5m x 5m and 3m x 4m sections, depending on how the 3m x 4m is oriented to your 5m x 5m, that is a perimeter of 26m or 28m. Either way, with a wall thickness of 0.3m, the walls amount to an area of more than 7m2 (7.8m2 or 8.4m2), which means your internal area ends up being less than 30m2. If I recall correctly the need for building regs is driven by an internal area of more than 30m2...

...unless you are within one metre of the boundary.

Terry.
Wizard9999
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1409
Joined: 08 Aug 2014, 11:51
Location: Eversley, Hampshire
Name: Lord Radford

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Deejay » 05 Jan 2015, 16:18

Afternoon Mark

Water - Now erring towards running a plain, plastic, cold water feed from the house but leaving that hidden in ducting until signed off

Surely you'll need an outside tap for car washing etc. and you'll run the feed inside the building for aesthetics and frost protection.

Cheers

Dave
User avatar
Deejay
Sapling
 
Posts: 428
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 09:36
Location: Wiltshire
Name: Dave

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 05 Jan 2015, 17:05

Wizard9999 wrote:Hold your horses Mark! Do you actually need building regs? :eusa-think:

You say 37m2 external area. On your planning thread you said 5m x 5m and 3m x 4m sections, depending on how the 3m x 4m is oriented to your 5m x 5m, that is a perimeter of 26m or 28m. Either way, with a wall thickness of 0.3m, the walls amount to an area of more than 7m2 (7.8m2 or 8.4m2), which means your internal area ends up being less than 30m2. If I recall correctly the need for building regs is driven by an internal area of more than 30m2...

...unless you are within one metre of the boundary.

Terry.
Terry

It's 37m/sq as the total footprint (including wall thickness) and I am bang up against the boundary, unless the outside of my hedge is the edge of the boundary, which I do need to check, but I am pretty sure that I am going to be hard up against the boundary.

Will of course be confirming this before doing anything, but am currently working on the assumption that I will be needing BR.

The other option of course is to bring it a meter and a bit from the boundary but that causes me some sideline issues between my office desk position and the personnel gate, and ideally I want to be able to see people coming into the gate. Also, ideally I want to keep it from encroaching into the garden as much as possible hence pushing back against the boundary. Will need weighing

Deejay wrote:Surely you'll need an outside tap for car washing etc. and you'll run the feed inside the building for aesthetics and frost protection.


Dave

That was my thinking last night but I kept it to myself until I've checked out the regs. :)

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Wizard9999 » 05 Jan 2015, 18:05

TrimTheKing wrote:Terry

It's 37m/sq as the total footprint (including wall thickness) and I am bang up against the boundary, unless the outside of my hedge is the edge of the boundary, which I do need to check, but I am pretty sure that I am going to be hard up against the boundary.

Will of course be confirming this before doing anything, but am currently working on the assumption that I will be needing BR.

The other option of course is to bring it a meter and a bit from the boundary but that causes me some sideline issues between my office desk position and the personnel gate, and ideally I want to be able to see people coming into the gate. Also, ideally I want to keep it from encroaching into the garden as much as possible hence pushing back against the boundary. Will need weighing


Mark

I really think this needs working through, I am really not sure you need BR, given:
(i) total footprint is 37m;
(ii) for 5 x 5m plus a 3 x 4m box attached that gives a minimum perimeter of 26m;
(iii) assuming wall thickness of 0.3m gives you an internal area of very slightly under 30m2;
(iv) you are within one metre of the boundary; and,
(v) the workshop will have a brick skin and tiled roof.

Whilst the details would need to be checked with the local BR team the Planning Portal page (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permis ... buildings/) on this says:

"If you want to put up small detached buildings such as a garden shed or summerhouse in your garden, building regulations will not normally apply if the floor area of the building is less than 15 square metres and contains NO sleeping accommodation.

If the floor area of the building is between 15 square metres and 30 square metres, you will not normally be required to apply for building regulations approval providing that the building contains NO sleeping accommodation and is either at least one metre from any boundary or it is constructed of substantially non-combustible materials."

Your workshop is between 15 and 30m2, within 1m of the boundary but constructed of substantially non-combustible materials. So it seems to me you do not need BR.

Regards,
Terry.
Last edited by Wizard9999 on 06 Jan 2015, 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
Wizard9999
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1409
Joined: 08 Aug 2014, 11:51
Location: Eversley, Hampshire
Name: Lord Radford

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 05 Jan 2015, 18:14

That's a very good spot Terry as I had read that as needing to be one metre!

Thanks for that, will give them a bell tomorrow!

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby RogerS » 05 Jan 2015, 18:41

Ah, but the fly in the ointment is 'no sleeping arrangements'. Now where is Mark going to go when SWMBO is displeased ? :lol:
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 Jan 2015, 14:35

Okay dudes, we're all good. 30 mins on the phone with Building Control and we're sorted.

As predicted he said reg's can/do change so I can only be as good as existing ones, but I can't see these changing significantly going forwards, and if they do then it's tough luck I guess :D

So here's the official line,

- Walls - to comply as a habitable building it needs to be brick face (or whatever face you choose), cavity of at least 85mm of full fill insulation, then thermal block internally. To get below the 30m/sq I'm going to go 100mm anyway so think I should be covered long term.

- Waste - I'm absolutely fine to run in soil pipe to my own septic tank. Only stipulations being there needs to be a clear straight run to be able to rod every pipe length, which there is/will be.

- Electrics - Needs Building Regs or Notice unless done by Certified Part P sparky, of which I have a couple on the books, so that's the route I'll take.

- Rainwater - Fine to take into water butts, wasn't fussed in the slightest about soakaways etc.

- Water main - to come in at least 750mm below finished ground level, which is doable given I'm going to have to do a lot of digging anyway so this will just be a bit more.

- Building Regs - So long as I get the internal floor space below 30m/sq then because it is brick and slate then even though I'm hard up against the boundary no BR required. :D

So it's looks like I'm good to go, Terry you were spot on! :D :obscene-drinkingcheers:

Now I've got that sorted I'll start a thread with a couple of new thoughts/questions about roofing (which Mike is very kindly assisting with) and a sneaky possibility of getting a little more headroom… :eusa-whistle:

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby 9fingers » 06 Jan 2015, 15:33

Excellent news Mark. At least you won't have to jump through hoops that you don't need to and without BCO inspectors nosing around you can take the odd pragmatic decision to do something your way because you want/need to.

If you get the right sort of Sparkies involved, they should be able to give a degree of advice, let you do the bulk of the grunt work and they can tighten the terminals and give you a sign off to part P-ain in the ass.

With water main at 750mm you should be proof against freezing and just need to protect/insulate the rising section as it comes up above that level.

From memory, when thinking about ground source heat pumps years back, the ground temperature is pretty constant at + a few degrees at 750 mm ish or more below surface even in the frozen wastes of the North (or Warrington as you know it :lol: )

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Deejay » 06 Jan 2015, 16:30

Afternoon Mark

A PDF from Thames Water ...

http://www.thameswater.co.uk/tw/common/ ... -notes.pdf

Cheers

Dave
User avatar
Deejay
Sapling
 
Posts: 428
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 09:36
Location: Wiltshire
Name: Dave

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby RogerS » 06 Jan 2015, 17:01

And before anyone starts saying how long their water pipe is......I think I win the prize :(

Image

In common with everyone else in the UK (well, at least England), we are responsible for the pipe AFTER the waterboard stopcock. :o (and meter)
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 Jan 2015, 17:03

Cheers Dave

That covers pretty much the same details as the one I looked at for United Utilities (my local provider). All I really need to be concerned with at this stage is ensuring I adhere to the 750mm deep laying of the supply and the proximity to the other services, I think…

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby 9fingers » 06 Jan 2015, 17:18

I guess my single above ground 68mm duct containing water, power, telecoms and BRUB does not quite meet the current requirements then? :oops:

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby RogerS » 06 Jan 2015, 18:05

9fingers wrote:I guess my single above ground 68mm duct containing water, power, telecoms and BRUB does not quite meet the current requirements then? :oops:

Bob


BRUB...Building Regulations Unnecessary, Bro covers it, I think :)
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 Jan 2015, 18:12

RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:I guess my single above ground 68mm duct containing water, power, telecoms and BRUB does not quite meet the current requirements then? :oops:

Bob


BRUB...Building Regulations Unnecessary, Bro covers it, I think :)


Oh well done Sir! :eusa-clap:

Mark
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Trimble Workshop : Let the planning commence

Postby Mike G » 06 Jan 2015, 20:46

RogerS wrote:And before anyone starts saying how long their water pipe is......I think I win the prize :(

.......
In common with everyone else in the UK (well, at least England), we are responsible for the pipe AFTER the waterboard stopcock. :o (and meter)


Jeez, Roger!! Don't you have an old well somewhere near?
User avatar
Mike G
Sequoia
 
Posts: 9834
Joined: 30 Jul 2014, 22:36
Location: Suffolk
Name:

Previous

Return to General Woodworking

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 12 guests