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Alternative gouges to Pfeil

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Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 24 Mar 2021, 11:28

Since available stock of long bent Pfeil gouges of the three sizes I require anywhere in the world seems to be zero with no indication of future availability (maybe the Gnomes have caught Covid), I am now looking for alternative manufacturers.

Sweep equivalence is vital and so any suggestions gratefully received.

The ones I need are 8/10 8/30 5/25 all long bent so probably need the L suffix attached.

TIA
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby AndyT » 24 Mar 2021, 12:27

Here's a suggestion that you won't find online.
In Bristol, we have a rare survivor of a shop. It's called Bristol Design and sells all sorts of used woodworking tools. They used to issue mail order catalogues but apart from a minor presence on eBay have not really shifted into selling online.

Back in the 80s/90s they branched out into a few ranges of new tools - infill plane castings, chisels, and a comprehensive range of carving tools, which I think were made in Austria or Germany. Given the hundreds of variants of sweeps and sizes, this venture wasn't going to be a quick seller and although they aren't keeping it going, they have a lot left. They might have some back bent gouges.

I don't know which sizing system they followed, but the proprietor will. I suggest that you give him a ring and have a chat. His name is Charles Stirling and there's some basic information here.
https://bristol-design.co.uk/

If you need me to act as a go-between, I could.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Mar 2021, 12:28

:text-goodpost: :text-bravo:
Cheers
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby Woodbloke » 24 Mar 2021, 13:51

AndyT wrote:Here's a suggestion that you won't find online.
In Bristol, we have a rare survivor of a shop. It's called Bristol Design and sells all sorts of used woodworking tools. They used to issue mail order catalogues but apart from a minor presence on eBay have not really shifted into selling online.



I've heard of this place but never been so it might be worth throwing the velocipede on the train and having a run over. There used to be a similar, but much smaller enterprise in Salisbury called Pennyfarthing Tools but they shut up shop some years ago due to lack of 'footfall'. They did though, have some nice stuff in there from time to time, including a late Norris panel plane which is still under my bench - Rob
I no longer work for Axminster Tools & Machinery.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby sunnybob » 24 Mar 2021, 14:23

I've just looked at the website. :shock:
As a planophobic I darent wander round in there. But I think it a wonderful place for the addicted. 8-) 8-)
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 24 Mar 2021, 14:54

Many thanks, Andy. I've been in touch with him. The chase's afoot.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 24 Mar 2021, 18:26

Andy, can I just check my understanding of the types of gouges. As you know, I'm after carving the wreaths. So convex curve.

Image

It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby Trevanion » 24 Mar 2021, 19:21

RogerS wrote:It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?


You could do most if not all of that with a regular sharp bench chisel, I don't really see gouges being able to help you too much with that except for perhaps the top of the handrail.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 24 Mar 2021, 19:46

Trevanion wrote:
RogerS wrote:It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?


You could do most if not all of that with a regular sharp bench chisel, I don't really see gouges being able to help you too much with that except for perhaps the top of the handrail.


I'm not so sure. If the gouge is the same profile as the curve then surely that has to be easier/better ?
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby AndyT » 24 Mar 2021, 20:00

RogerS wrote:Andy, can I just check my understanding of the types of gouges. As you know, I'm after carving the wreaths. So convex curve.

Image

It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?


I'm afraid I really don't know. I have very limited experience of carving and none of making that sort of piece. Sorry!
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby Mike G » 24 Mar 2021, 20:04

I can see a hollow down from the crown on the top face as it approaches the edge moulding. I reckon that's where a gouge would be useful. The "bulge" on the sides doesn't really need a gouge, but it might be a bonus to have one. Only an out-cannel would work for that convex shape, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one with a bent blade ( not that a bent blade would help as far as I can see).

If you can measure the curve, Roger, I'll see if either of my big out-cannel gouges matches. If it does, you're welcome to borrow it for the duration. Same for the hollow on the top. If you can get an accurate measure of the curve to me I'll see if I've got something to match.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby Trevanion » 24 Mar 2021, 20:12

RogerS wrote:I'm not so sure. If the gouge is the same profile as the curve then surely that has to be easier/better ?


Yes, it may be a little easier (I'd personally work the wreath's mouldings to various square sections first and then shape those to the final moulding) but you won't have to possibly wait weeks to do the job nor will you have to spend a serious amount of money on tools you'll not need again.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 24 Mar 2021, 23:02

Mike G wrote:I can see a hollow down from the crown on the top face as it approaches the edge moulding. I reckon that's where a gouge would be useful. The "bulge" on the sides doesn't really need a gouge, but it might be a bonus to have one. Only an out-cannel would work for that convex shape, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one with a bent blade ( not that a bent blade would help as far as I can see).

If you can measure the curve, Roger, I'll see if either of my big out-cannel gouges matches. If it does, you're welcome to borrow it for the duration. Same for the hollow on the top. If you can get an accurate measure of the curve to me I'll see if I've got something to match.


Thanks, Mike.

Does this help?

handrail cutters (two off)  redacted.jpg
(22.65 KiB)
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 24 Mar 2021, 23:03

Trevanion wrote:
RogerS wrote:I'm not so sure. If the gouge is the same profile as the curve then surely that has to be easier/better ?


Yes, it may be a little easier (I'd personally work the wreath's mouldings to various square sections first and then shape those to the final moulding) but you won't have to possibly wait weeks to do the job nor will you have to spend a serious amount of money on tools you'll not need again.


My philosophy, Dan, is to buy the tools that I need but then sell-on if I don't think I'll need them again.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby Trevanion » 24 Mar 2021, 23:11

RogerS wrote:My philosophy, Dan, is to buy the tools that I need but then sell-on if I don't think I'll need them again.


Fair enough, though I do think you may be giving the gouges more credit than they'll actually be worth on the job. If there were concave mouldings to your handrail section it would make sense to get some gouges but I honestly think you'll have a much easier time carving it out with a bench chisel and scraping with scratch stocks as mostly everything is either flat or convex.

Also, you may want to edit that image above to remove certain personal details!
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby Lons » 25 Mar 2021, 01:14

Hi Roger
I managed to look this afternoon and I only have a couple of bent back both far to small though I have a spoon chisel and a scorp but tbh I think you're over complicating it although I can see why.
Whatever chisels you use you cant easily cut the profiles tor a finished shape and it's just as easy to use standard gouges / rotary tool and then finess it with rifflers, abrasive and scrapers ground from handsaw plate.

I haven't carved anything like that but have done plenty of complicated carvings with similar issues of reach and access and you just have to fiddle away at it sometimes that means shaping bits of wood and sticking abrasive to it.

I sold on most of my old chisels to a collector a few years ago but have mine laid out on the bench so will take some pics and email them to you in the morning.

If you do buy gouges it doesn't really matter what brand you get as for that job even the cheapos will hold an edge long enough then quickly honed after all it's a one off and walnut isn't usually too difficult to carve.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 25 Mar 2021, 07:29

Trevanion wrote:
RogerS wrote:My philosophy, Dan, is to buy the tools that I need but then sell-on if I don't think I'll need them again.


Fair enough, though I do think you may be giving the gouges more credit than they'll actually be worth on the job. If there were concave mouldings to your handrail section it would make sense to get some gouges but I honestly think you'll have a much easier time carving it out with a bench chisel and scraping with scratch stocks as mostly everything is either flat or convex.

Also, you may want to edit that image above to remove certain personal details!


:oops: Thanks Dan. I'm usually so careful.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 25 Mar 2021, 07:30

Mmmm... :eusa-think: You're all singing off the same hymn sheet and since you guys know much more than me about this carving malarkey, I need to rethink.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 25 Mar 2021, 07:34

Lons wrote:....
I sold on most of my old chisels to a collector a few years ago but have mine laid out on the bench so will take some pics and email them to you in the morning.
...


Thanks Lons. You're either up late or up earlier even than me !
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby MJ80 » 25 Mar 2021, 08:00

I have found a pklace over here where 8/30 5/25, both L are available. The smaller one isn't in stock.
https://drechslershop.de/hohlmeissel-la ... =015-5l_25
Not sure which zone the UK is now for shipping. If its any use drop me a line and we can get it arranged.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 25 Mar 2021, 08:29

MJ80 wrote:....
Not sure which zone the UK is now for shipping. ....


Many thanks for seeking this out. Unfortunately, the UK is in the Forbidden Zone. We don't exist in their list of countries that they ship to. Every other country is listed, it seems. Wonder why that is :eusa-think:

I looked for Vereinigtes Königreich. Maybe we're known under a different name ? Die Aussätzigen, maybe.
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby TomTrees » 25 Mar 2021, 10:02

I know nothing about carving, so likely no help.
Presume you have looked at Henry Taylor and Kirschen tools?
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby Woodster » 25 Mar 2021, 12:09

TomTrees wrote:I know nothing about carving, so likely no help.
Presume you have looked at Henry Taylor and Kirschen tools?


I’ve got at least one of each of those along with some other Swiss and Austrian tools and I can’t see any difference in performance from any of them.

It’s a shame we’re still in lockdown because there seems to be a huge market in second hand carving tools judging by the large numbers I’ve seen at craft shows etc in previous years. Sadly they don’t go cheap though!
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby MJ80 » 25 Mar 2021, 14:34

I can give them a call of you want. Shipping from here privately won't really work as you will end up paying german vat, shipping twice and whatever duties they decide to use when it hits the UK.
Have you looked at stubai? as an alternative
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Re: Alternative gouges to Pfeil

Postby RogerS » 25 Mar 2021, 16:49

TomTrees wrote:I know nothing about carving, so likely no help.
Presume you have looked at Henry Taylor and Kirschen tools?


Very hard to find any accurate 1:1 drawings of their sweeps.
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