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Dust extraction

Here's the place to talk about all your table saws, bandsaws, routers and dust extractors. In fact anything that makes noise and uses electrickery.

Dust extraction

Postby MattS » 10 Sep 2017, 22:15

I need some help! I have read a lot, starting with Rob's 4 part series on the Axi site. I understand the difference between the varying types to a degree but still a little unsure mainly on why you can't just use a HVLP system on tools like a P/T other than volume of chips collected why would it not work?!

Anyway, my situation is I have no dust extraction :shock: this needs sorting. I have an area in my new garage for wood, always made to cutting outside or with a mask in the old house. I have a list of projects to do in the house. I've been cutting ply over the last couple of weeks with my new TS55 which funnels the dust much better than my old Skil saw making a dust fountain!!! I plan to get a HVLP system with cyclone as I currently only have a table saw, my new radial arm saw, pillar drill and other power tools. I do plan to get a P/T but not yet and will reaches when I do.

So, budget is limited I will be getting a vacuum cleaner of some sort to provide the extraction, at the lower end of the budget so if any particular recommendations that would be good otherwise I'll get on Google. My question is with regard to cyclone. I've been agonising over weekend as to whether to go for a ready made kit, this one;

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... uty+dk6766

Or buy a cyclone and then make the rest myself. I have a spare home-brew bucket which the lid is tight on so think this may work. Then I come across this;

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-11 ... rum-508482

It doesn't look like a cyclone but does this do the same thing? Suggests using it with HVLP extractor, but quite a powerful one. Would this work with something more like this;

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... nds+dk6695

Help appreciated!
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Re: Dust extraction

Postby 9fingers » 10 Sep 2017, 22:23

But surely HVLP is the way to go for P/T chips? Did you mistype?
But I've not read the axi articles to be honest.
I use HVLP+ cyclone for everything but it is not much good on a sander small bore hose.
I can't be putting up with screechy brush motors

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Re: Dust extraction

Postby MattS » 10 Sep 2017, 22:29

9fingers wrote:But surely HVLP is the way to go for P/T chips? Did you mistype?
But I've not read the axi articles to be honest.
I use HVLP+ cyclone for everything but it is not much good on a sander small bore hose.
I can't be putting up with screechy brush motors

Bob


:eusa-doh: Oops mistype, I planned to get HPLV, basically a vacuum cleaner and a cyclone.

My sander doesn't get huge use really, only house hold things. So you'd suggest a HVLP with a quite induction motor and cyclone - but is that axi drum a substitute for a cyclone?
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Re: Dust extraction

Postby 9fingers » 10 Sep 2017, 22:45

I'm not sure to be honest but I'd avoid 63mm pipe unless you are planning only a toy P/T.
I use 110mm pipe, about 20 metres long to cover the shop and the planer is last on the line but still clears OK with dry timber. It will clog with green timber which needs even more suck
the thicknesser is a beast at 15" wide and feeds in about 3m from the cyclone.
Blower is 3hp/14"diam and 150mm pipe to the cyclone.

Video here http://vid115.photobucket.com/albums/n3 ... lexevo.mp4

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Dust extraction

Postby Rod » 10 Sep 2017, 23:50

For small bore stuff I use a cheapo McAllister vac from B&Q which I also use on the crown guard of my table saw.
For other machines, including the main output of my TS I use a wall mounted Record DX5000 with 110mm tubing. My Router and BS I convert the 110 to 63.
I have the parts to make up a cyclone but it's another TUIT.

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Re: Dust extraction

Postby Woodbloke » 20 Sep 2017, 22:36

MattS wrote:I need some help! I have read a lot, starting with Rob's 4 part series on the Axi site.


Glad you enjoyed the articles and got something out of them. Dust extraction in the workshop is, without a shadow of a doubt THE most complicated area to get your head round. I'm no expert in any way, but I put together those four basic articles as a guide to set up a reasonable system in a hobbyist 'shop. You should bear in mind that it's the very, very fine dust from sanding which is potentially lethal. This is because those are the particles that get drawn deep into the lungs.

Two things in my experience are crucial. The first is what the system expels back into the 'shop once it's passed through the dx system...this is what you're going to breath! You need to know the 'capture percentage' of the machine to know how efficient it is, which is why cyclones are so good; virtually everything ends up in the bin and almost nothing is expelled back into the 'shop, the caveat being that it has to be set up correctly.

In testing dust extractors to CE requirements, a known weight of dust (size 0.5 micron and larger) is passed through the machine and the residue in the air exiting the extractor is then weighed. The residue is calculated as a percentage of the original weight and it’s this figure that’s important; thus a machine such as the Numatic NVD 750 in a standard L class configuration will filter down to 0.5 microns, but also will capture 99.97% of the dust.

This little excerpt may go some way to answer one of your queries:

Table saws, planer thicknessers and some other machines usually have a dust port of 100mm and this is probably the most common size of ducting that’s used in a hobby workshop. It’s also the same size that will fit most chip extractors. Where individual machines have an extraction port which is smaller than 100mm, they are best connected to a separate low volume, high pressure (LVHP) vacuum extractor such as the excellent NVD750 or NV750. This is because workshop chip extractors generate a high volume of airflow but with low pressure (HVLP), which makes them unsuitable for use with small diameter inlet hoses. A reduction below 75mm diameter is not recommended. The mesh size of the filter bag on a chip extractor needs to be relatively coarse to allow the high volume of air to pass through and thus they are not suitable for filtering out the very fine dust produced by sanding machines. Owing to the high surface area, fitting a cartridge filter equipped with deep pleats improves the level of filtration without impeding the airflow.

Whilst that series of articles is in no way definitive, the research I did for them helped me to improve my current dx system to the point where I reckon it's about as good as it's going to get - Rob
I no longer work for Axminster Tools & Machinery.
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Re: Dust extraction

Postby stevetravis01 » 29 Oct 2017, 16:12

Hi, newbie here (both in the forum and wood working). Got here thinking about my sinus troubles.

I'm in no way planning of creating my own dust collector like Matt, but what he linked looks pretty cool:
http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... uty+dk6766

Got myself a table saw recently (DW749) I've originally read from http://www.sawinery.net/best-table-saw. Would the dust extractor in the first link be good for this? Or are there any cheaper options you can suggest? I'm mainly just gonna work on furniture (not hardcore stuff).
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Re: Dust extraction

Postby 9fingers » 29 Oct 2017, 17:04

Welcome to the Haven!

What other debris making machines do you have on your wish list?

The table saw will produce "medium" dust from tree wood and finer dust from MDF as will a mitre saw.
If this is the coarsest waste that you envisage then you are possible on the right track and it will cope with sanding devices too.
But if you aim to have shaving producing machines then the inlet diameter is too small and also waste bins too small. An HVLP chip collector would be better and if the pipe bore is kept up for as long as possible before reducing to the tool size, makes a tolerable(but not perfect!) job of the finer dust too.

Bob
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Re: Dust extraction

Postby Rod » 29 Oct 2017, 17:13

The Rutland kit would work to extract at the crown guard but your type of saw is open underneath I think?
I made my own version for about £40 ( the barrel cost £10 and £30 for the cyclone).

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My TS collects to a chamber underneath.

A fine particle face mask is a must too.

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Re: Dust extraction

Postby stevetravis01 » 29 Oct 2017, 17:46

9fingers wrote:Welcome to the Haven!

What other debris making machines do you have on your wish list?

The table saw will produce "medium" dust from tree wood and finer dust from MDF as will a mitre saw.
If this is the coarsest waste that you envisage then you are possible on the right track and it will cope with sanding devices too.
But if you aim to have shaving producing machines then the inlet diameter is too small and also waste bins too small. An HVLP chip collector would be better and if the pipe bore is kept up for as long as possible before reducing to the tool size, makes a tolerable(but not perfect!) job of the finer dust too.

Bob


Thanks, Bob! Well my next purchase might be a router or a new sander (i got a Ridgid hand-me-down) or probably a handy jigsaw.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate it.
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Re: Dust extraction

Postby stevetravis01 » 29 Oct 2017, 17:48

Rod wrote:The Rutland kit would work to extract at the crown guard but your type of saw is open underneath I think?
I made my own version for about £40 ( the barrel cost £10 and £30 for the cyclone).

Image

My TS collects to a chamber underneath.

A fine particle face mask is a must too.

Rod


That's pretty cool! Looks great, man.

Yeah, gotta have a mask too. Thanks!
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Re: Dust extraction

Postby will1983 » 30 Oct 2017, 10:11

I have recently completed building a thein separator as I also hate the loud screeching noise my old brushed 50l extractor made.

I found a 1hp blower with an induction motor on eBay and modified it to fit a thein chamber I made.
It is designed to be used with a 110mm soil pipe system and the collection bin is a 70l plastic dust bin. The inlet is a 110mm round to 195x40mm rectangular transition which I also fabricated. The bottom plate has a drop slot 40mm wide to match the inlet transition width.

Just to be on the safe side the exhaust is due to be piped through a hole in my garage wall, though first impressions show there to be very little if any bypass.

The cart is mounted on castors though this is temporary until the rest of my workshop cabinetry is built and the separator can be situated in its final location.

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