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Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

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Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 12 Oct 2015, 09:42

I am thinking through the purchase decision on a planer thicknesser. Lots of facts and figures available for various models, but rather than ask which models people like I thought I'd ask what features those with experience of planer thicknessers do or don't value. For example, recently I have been told by one person that a complex, long winded change over between planer and thicknesser can be a real practical annoyance; another person said that one reason for poor performance is blades not being sharp, therefore a difficult blade change over process in that it deters regular sharpening is a bad thing.

So any thoughts about things I should consider, whether the type of thing in the usual specification sheet or otherwise?

Thanks in advance,
Terry.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby TrimTheKing » 12 Oct 2015, 09:48

Agree with the first comment, you want to have the easiest change between machines as possible. O love the performance of my Axminster 106PT2 but the tables lift in a butterfly motion and you flip over the DX port from planer to thicknesser mode, so unless you have a long flex DX pipe you need to spin the whole machine around. Massive ball ache!

I am going to make a turntable for it in the new 'shop to counter this, but if I had my time again I would spend a little more money and go for something like the Hammer PT on which the tables just lift up and the machine stays in the same orientation.

It's not a massive consideration but one to bear in mind.

Blade changes too can be good or bad, but there are after market solutions also I think…

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 12 Oct 2015, 10:29

TrimTheKing wrote:...but if I had my time again I would spend a little more money and go for something like the Hammer PT on which the tables just lift up and the machine stays in the same orientation.


Interesting point Mark. But even the Hammer (which is a fair bit more than I planned to pay) with a single lift of both tables mechanism seems to require the extraction 'shroud' to be flipped over the top of the cutters from what I can see online. Or are the pictures online deceptive?

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby TrimTheKing » 12 Oct 2015, 10:32

Wizard9999 wrote:
TrimTheKing wrote:...but if I had my time again I would spend a little more money and go for something like the Hammer PT on which the tables just lift up and the machine stays in the same orientation.


Interesting point Mark. But even the Hammer (which is a fair bit more than I planned to pay) with a single lift of both tables mechanism seems to require the extraction 'shroud' to be flipped over the top of the cutters from what I can see online. Or are the pictures online deceptive?

Terry.


You may well be right mate, it was a good 6/7 years ago when I was doing my investigations.

I think in that case then the turntable would be required anyway, in which case the table flip wouldn't be such a biggie. On mine it isn't a big issue, I think maybe I just prefer the look of the Hammer :twisted:

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Robert » 12 Oct 2015, 10:37

I have a Metabo HC260 (i think). its the same as many machines of this style.

looks a bit like this one google images found at toolstop
Image

You take one of the tables off and have to reposition the extraction cowling to thickness

Image

and yes it is annoying if you forget something that needs planing (or thicknessing) and have to swap back and forth for a small job during a batch run but it's not a huge problem.

You really don't need to replace the blades that often. I'm still using the set that came with the machine! I bought a spare set but have yet to fit them. I mostly just sharpen in situ with a diamond file now. If I start seeing problems I will swap the blades over. I wouldn't worry too much about easy blade change just check that it is a diy job you feel comfortable with.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Rob » 12 Oct 2015, 10:49

I've owned 2...the RP PT260 when I started machining up about 8 years ago and upgraded that to the Startrite SD300 about 3 years ago. My requirements list for the upgrade was as follows:

- Tables had to be min 1.3m long because rough sawn timber is my choice when buying stock for reasons of wood movement due to moisture and internal stresses, when making solid wood furniture I always dimension myself, avoiding buying PAR. Rough sawn comes in long lengths and the old adage applies, keep it as long as you can for as long as you can. I found on the PT 260 that board lengths I needed in the project (particularly doors) were too long for the beds to allow the planar beds to remove the twist etc.
- I wanted a 3 blade cutter block rather than 2 for a better finish
- Easy change from planing to thicknessing was a fundamental must for me, got very tired of having to flip between the two, despite best laid plans to batch them up, I'm afraid its inevitable that one board will need doing just when you're in the wrong mode!
- I wanted a cast iron fence because I use mag-jigs as feather boards when necessary because they're so easy to work with, aluminium....not that magnetic!
- Tables had to be a foot wide as I had projects using 11" oak boards in the offing.
- blade change being easy is a nice to have but as another poster has said, you don't do it that often as a hobbyist and its really not that bad...bit of a faff but it wouldn't govern my choice of machine. Having said that the Startrite is great whereas the PT260 had spring loaded blades which were more tricky to set. Whats far more important than the mechanism is your technique for re-setting them. Get that right and you'll be fine as precision in setting blade height is absolutely essential.

Reading that back sounds disingenuous to the PT260 and I wouldn't like that to come across because it was a tremendous little machine that worked really well. In fact it worked so well that a pal of mine bought it after emigrating to France, bought and is doing up a centuries old French farmhouse with classic oak frame. He's next door to a sawmill and buys all his oak rough and has planed 6"x6" beams on it apparently and 5 years later its still going strong. So it's a tough little cookie despite outward appearances of flimsiness but the changeover from one mode to another really did my head in and became intolerable by the end. Nice feature...it has reversible blades which doubled the mean time between blade sharpenings. Edit, Robert's Metabo above is the same clone as the 260 with a different base.

The Hammer of course, with the spiral cutter blocks trumps that x 2 as each square cutter has 4 sides....oh yeah....you know you want one Terry :-)
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 12 Oct 2015, 11:02

Cast iron fence is a great rarity these days.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby tracerman » 12 Oct 2015, 11:21

Terry - I bought an Elektra Bekum H260 secondhand ( 1979 model) about 25 years ago from a hobbyist and I cannot fault it . It was( is ) on a solid softwood joinery trolley on lockable castors made by the previous owner . On mine the motor fits on the side with two big toggles to hold it . So when not in use I remove the motor and stow it beneath . That's the only faff , lifting off the top half-table for thicknessing is quick and easy . Its not used much these days but I would never get rid of it . Only once have I ever had to change the rubber drive belt , and discovered that Metabo were near me . Their Mr Becker seemed most pleased that such and old machine was still in use . Oh , and the capacitor on the motor was replaced two years ago .

PS must a make a note for self , to flip the rollers round a bit so drive belt is not in same position for too long .

PPS same for bandsaw blade
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby RogerS » 12 Oct 2015, 12:09

Wizard9999 wrote:Cast iron fence is a great rarity these days.


Not if you buy secondhand.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby DaveL » 12 Oct 2015, 14:59

I have a Perform planner thicknesser, looks like the metabo pictured above. The blades do last a long time, they are double sided and the use of a diamond hone to touch them up extends the life considerably. I now only use this in thicknessing mode as I bought a second hand Multico planner. Very pleased with it, nice long cast iron tables and fence, a pleasure to use. The only down side, it has a 2hp motor that blows a 13 amp fuse every time, I put in a second 16 amp commando socket for it, problem solved.
Don't dismiss second-hand machines, the older cast iron kit goes on for a long time, I think mine will out last me, my GP reckons I have another 40 years so that's a bit of a challenge.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 12 Oct 2015, 16:41

DaveL wrote:I have a Perform planner thicknesser, looks like the metabo pictured above. The blades do last a long time, they are double sided and the use of a diamond hone to touch them up extends the life considerably. I now only use this in thicknessing mode as I bought a second hand Multico planner. Very pleased with it, nice long cast iron tables and fence, a pleasure to use. The only down side, it has a 2hp motor that blows a 13 amp fuse every time, I put in a second 16 amp commando socket for it, problem solved.
Don't dismiss second-hand machines, the older cast iron kit goes on for a long time, I think mine will out last me, my GP reckons I have another 40 years so that's a bit of a challenge.


Yes, appreciate there is a recurring theme in these type of threads in terms of recommendations for older kit. My fear has always been and remains that my mechanical knowledge is so limited that I would need to find something in as good as new condition. Otherwise it would just sit there for years waiting for me to try and get it into a decent shape.

I do already have a 16amp socket ready and waiting, so that at least is not a limitation.

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby RogerS » 12 Oct 2015, 17:53

Not all secondhand machines are dogs that need six months work to refurbish them. When I bought my Sedgwick, I needed to align the tables which was very straightforward and required nothing more than some feeler gauges and a long straight-edge.

The fan came adrift from the end of the motor shaft but again easy enough to fix. Spanners and a bit of glue.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 12 Oct 2015, 18:35

RogerS wrote:Not all secondhand machines are dogs that need six months work to refurbish them. When I bought my Sedgwick, I needed to align the tables which was very straightforward and required nothing more than some feeler gauges and a long straight-edge.

The fan came adrift from the end of the motor shaft but again easy enough to fix. Spanners and a bit of glue.


I find Sedgwick a bit of a mystery. A new one is well above the budget I have allocated to this, but occassionally see second hand PTs. However, when you look at the specification alone they seem wildly adrift in terms of the features / price equation. For example some of the features I have been comparing are table length, planing width, thicknessing depth, number of blades, motor power. On these criteria the Sedgwick PT really compares with the machines around the £1,000 price bracket, and looks at a disadvantage to machines around £1,500. The only feature where it is (in my view) way better is the fact that the tables do not need to be moved for ticknessing.

I guess it must just be the built quality and general robustness that costs.

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby chataigner » 13 Oct 2015, 07:52

An observation about "change-over time" on planer/thicknesser type machines. I bought a modern quite light-weight combined machine (Kity 2600) which has served surprisingly well for nearly 10yrs. I have only regretted one thing and that is the time it takes to change over from planer to thicknesser mode. As well as the fiddle of movng the chip collection gadget, there is the time it takes to wind the thicknesser bed down far enough to get the thing in (or out), and then back up again to support it. Then there is the hose to be switched around to the other end of the machine, blast gates to be opened and closed etc.

It is probably a sad reflection on my character as a woodworker, but the honest truth is that from time to time I do compromise jobs by not going through this tedious process for just one little item when the work demands that I should. I almost always regret it later, but I still do it. Hopefully you have more self discipline...

I chose a combined machine because I had no room for two machines at the time, but if I was starting again in my now much bigger shop, I would have a planer and a thicknesser side by side.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Rob » 13 Oct 2015, 09:04

The tedium of changeover you detail there is exactly what I had to do on the PT260, by your description I'm guessing, like the Metabo, its another clone from the same factory. That and the bed lengths were the two primary drivers that caused me to upgrade.

I once timed the changeover......sort of Pit stop style as I had done it so often I'd got it down as efficiently as it could go. It was about a minute and a half. That doesn't seem much when presented all on its lonesome in text like that but in the workshop when in the middle of processing timber, it's an eternity. I think what really sticks in one's throat is when you just have the odd board to plane and you need to flip from one mode to the other. That's when the frustration really started to niggle me, it wasn't so much on the planned larger batch jobs.

The Startrite is by contrast an absolute joy to use. The changeover is simply a stop lever pulled, flip over the left bed only which locks in the upright position, hinge up the DX shroud (same side as for planing) and you're good to go. 10 seconds and that's if you're dawdling!

I often read how single sided mechanisms "throw" out the alignment of the beds. Never happened once on the SD300. It was very well set from the factory but I did fine adjust it and I've never had to change it since. The just launched upgrade is called the SD31, which I saw at the D&M toolshow. It has a changed fence mechanism such that it can be stored closer to a wall which I rather like. It also has a digital thickness dial and a wheelkit, at least it did at the show. The fence is now an aluminium extrusion instead of cast iron but for those who don't require mag jigs, who cares, its easily robust enough for regular use. Again, I don't personally value the digital thickness meter because I'm used to thicknessing and I use mechanical means to sneak up on the finished dimension (1/4 turn of the handle etc) which I rather like. My shortlist is all coming back to me now, it had the Hammer, the Jet, the Axy ones in that price range and the Startrite. I had a cursory meander round the 2nd hand market but I also didn't want to turn into Wallace, I wanted to make things out of wood! The Hammer was lovely but just too expensive and I didn't want to wait the 3 months I was being quoted for them to build it! In addition, with Hammer, everything is an extra cost. With their bandsaws, ah you'd like a mitre fence sir...that'll be a hundred quid.....wheel kit...get your mortgage paperwork, etc etc. The start price was clearly in the industrial category but it didn't end there and delivery was going to be another £150. It was knocking on the door of 2 grand by the end and I just thought, this is a hobby! There comes a point in my mind when as much as I'm drooling about the tool, I start to think of all the lovely burr walnut I could buy if I got a model that's good enough but £500 cheaper. The Jet was nice but I recall I didn't like something, might have been the bed length. The Axy's just weren't in the same league and the Startrite ticked all the boxes and was on a promo at a previous D&M show so that won in the end.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby RogerS » 13 Oct 2015, 09:24

Wizard9999 wrote:
RogerS wrote:Not all secondhand machines are dogs that need six months work to refurbish them. When I bought my Sedgwick, I needed to align the tables which was very straightforward and required nothing more than some feeler gauges and a long straight-edge.

The fan came adrift from the end of the motor shaft but again easy enough to fix. Spanners and a bit of glue.


I find Sedgwick a bit of a mystery. .....
Terry.


In your price performance comparison are you comparing new for new or old for new or what? There simply is NO comparison between a Sedgwick and most of the other ones you or others have mentioned (Startrite is also excellent). They are toys in comparison. Sorry to be blunt but there you go.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Rob » 13 Oct 2015, 11:23

You know I would have made the exact same comment until I owned that RP PT260. It does ,and so do all the other clones of it look and feel like a toy compared to any of the chunky industrial brands. But in actual use (non industrial) it performed admirably which is why I made the point about the chap in France who is still using it to this day on thumping great oak beams. It's actual performance rather defied the logic of its somewhat flimsy build quality. It's not often I'm pleasantly surprised about the performance of Chinese made machine tools but this one bucked the trend....apart from that changeover from one mode to the other of course.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Rob » 13 Oct 2015, 11:28

I think it's academic anyway because Terry won't buy one of those :-)
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 13 Oct 2015, 12:47

RogerS wrote:In your price performance comparison are you comparing new for new or old for new or what? There simply is NO comparison between a Sedgwick and most of the other ones you or others have mentioned (Startrite is also excellent). They are toys in comparison. Sorry to be blunt but there you go.


I'm comparing everything with everything, lol.

I was trying to avoid getting into a specific machine versus machine discussion, as there is a risk of offending somebody who owns one of the machines, but I think in retrospect it is hard to have a theoretical discussion on the topic.

I looked at the Startrite SD31 at the D&M Show and it looks very solid and well specified, I think that in terms of new machines is the front runner. I simply wouldn't pay the price of a new Hammer (c.£2,200 for the smallest model), and even second hand I would struggle to justify paying more than for a new Startrite.

So taking the Startrite as the basis for comparison:
Motor size: 2.2KW
Planing width: 310mm
Table length: 1400mm
Max thicknessing: 200mm
Cutters: 3

So how does the Sedgwick PT stack up?
Motor size: 1.5KW (less than SD31)
Planing width: 255mm (less than SD31)
Table length: 1200 (less than SD31)
Max thicknessing: 180mm (less than SD31)
Cutters: 2 (fewer than SD31)

But the PT doesn't require tables to be lifted to switch from planing to thicknessing. However, the only PT that is under my SD31 price cap is a second hand one, so there is no guarantee vs the 5 yrs on the SD31.

There was a second hand 3 phase second hand PT sold recently for £1,070. But to that I need to add the cost of renting something to pick it up in and conversion to single phase, ball park £300 I reckon. So it would have been cheaper, but not miles cheaper.

So, based on the 'spec sheet' I would be paying similar money for an inferior machine. But the people out there buying them are far from foolish so there must be good reasons for their choice. But I need to better understand what "they are toys in comparison" really means. Are the printed spec's pointless in telling me anything about actual real world performance or is it that they will last forever or both or something else?

Terry.
Last edited by Wizard9999 on 13 Oct 2015, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Rod » 13 Oct 2015, 13:26

Well I have a toy - a Metabo HC260 just like Robert, which I've had for over 10yrs and the only thing that has failed is the drive belt.
I've got a spare set of blades and I use my Tormek to sharpen them.
I only a hobby woodworker, I buy all my wood sawn and have used it for everything I've made over this period.
The machines mentioned are probably better, more solid etc etc but for the likes of us the Metabo gives excellent value. It's done everything I've asked from it and is still going strong.

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby kirkpoore1 » 13 Oct 2015, 14:39

Wizard9999 wrote: But I need to better understand what "they are toys in comparison" really means. Are the printed spec's pointless in telling me anything about actual real world performance or is it that they will last forever or both or something else?

Terry.


Terry:

Please understand that I don't have any experience with Startrite nor with planer-thicknessers--the former isn't sold here and the latter are pretty rare now and were virtually unknown until a few years ago. However, I do have experience with heavy vs light machinery in general and thicknessers in particular.

A light duty thicknesser will probably have a faster spinning cutterhead and thus give more cuts per inch and at least theoretically a better surface. If the cutterhead has straight knives, they will likely be easier to change. You'll be able to move it around more easily. It will likely take less power (though your two Startrites show that isn't the case for P-T's).

A heavy duty/industrial thicknesser will have a much higher duty cycle. It will be able to run for hours at a time without overheating. It will take a much deeper cut. Straight knives will last much longer, and can be resharpened many times. You will be able to adjust the machine for wear, and tune it up for better performance (including adjusting the feed rolls, setting the pressure bar and chip breaker, and changing the height of the bed rolls for rough or planed wood). It will likely have adjustable feed speed and may have a much higher feed rate. If something breaks or wears out, you can fix it.

I have worn out a lunchbox thicknesser. It was a Delta 22-560, and I used it a lot and went through a lot of knives. Typical depth of cut was 1/32", though on narrower boards 1/16" would work. I even took it in for service a couple of times. It was a very good machine, I just used it up. The final straw was the keyway on the cutterhead where the pulley attached eventually wallowed out, so the pulley wouldn't stay tight in place. Also the rubber feed rolls were starting to get chewed up and would have needed replacing. I bought a Dewalt 734 to replace it temporarily, (the 22-560 was not being made anymore), and then moved up to an Oliver 399 18" industrial machine. Now I put far more wood through it, and yet change the knives half as often. The surface isn't quite as good, but I still sand or hand plane everything anyway, so that's no loss. Typical depth of cut is 1/8" to start and 1/16" when I get close to the finish thickness. I've had the same two sets of knives for the last 9 years, and get each set sharpened once a year. They're not done yet. I run boards through the Oliver that the feed rollers on the Delta would never have pulled through the machine even if they could have fit. The Oliver is much quieter than the Delta (or the Dewalt).

As far as cutterheads are concerned, if you don't like changing knives try to get a Byrd Shelix insert head. But it will cost you.

So I guess the issue is how much are you going to use it, and (from other comments) how much of a PITA is it to switch from planer-->thicknesser-->planer? Bells and whistles like digital readouts and depth stops aren't critical or even necessary.

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 13 Oct 2015, 15:39

Kirk

Sorry, mistake on my post above. The second machine is the Sedgwick, not a second Startrite - I have edited to correct this error on my part. Whilst the Sedgewick is heavier at 195kg it is only about 10% more than the Startrite at 175kg.

As I said above, I am trying to avoid any sense of "ah ha this machine is better than that machine", as it will only end up causing trouble. Your post is most helpful in trying to unpick some of the points that may not leap out of the retailers quoted specification.

In terms of usage I am a hobbyist, so it is not going to be running for many hours a day, indeed it could easily go weeks without use. But I do hope to still be using it in 20 years time, so I guess usage hours will accumulate over time. What I want is something that I can trust to be accurate and that will produce a good quality of finish. Trouble is, so far that seems to be the case with most people's machines :eusa-think:.

I'm fortunate in that cash is not a massive constraint, it is more I have set a figure I think it would be silly to go much above give this is just a hobby and a new one at that! But, I really have absolutely no mechanical capability, so I doubt that I will be able to fix anything and nor should I be allowed to mess with something that will have anything sharp spinning at high speed attached to it!

Terry.
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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby Wizard9999 » 13 Oct 2015, 16:35

Wizard9999 wrote:Kirk
Whilst the Sedgewick is heavier at 195kg it is only about 10% more than the Startrite at 175kg.


Interestingly I have just noticed the SD300 it replaced weighed in at 215KG, so a fair chunk of 'heft' has been engineered out of the new one - which had already had the cast iron fence replaced with aluminium.

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby kirkpoore1 » 13 Oct 2015, 20:28

Wizard9999 wrote:I'm fortunate in that cash is not a massive constraint, it is more I have set a figure I think it would be silly to go much above give this is just a hobby and a new one at that! But, I really have absolutely no mechanical capability, so I doubt that I will be able to fix anything and nor should I be allowed to mess with something that will have anything sharp spinning at high speed attached to it!

Terry.


It's your call, of course, Terry. But the better built machine will last longer. And frankly, I seriously doubt the "no mechanical capability." Say rather, "no mechanical experience". Most of the time fixing stuff isn't hard. I remember being really scared the first time I cracked open a motor. Frankly, it was no big deal to change the bearings and clean the contacts. A little hand holding, a few Youtube videos, and a little "Well, it's already busted so I might as well give it a shot" attitude and you'll be on your way.

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Re: Planer Thicknessers (not phones lol)

Postby podengo » 14 Oct 2015, 21:28

I would suggest looking at both new and second hand machines. Even if you dont really want to buy 2nd hand, seeing machines in the flesh will give you a real feel for the difference in quality from the budget end up to the wadkin cast iron end.

Quality machines have beds that dont flex under pressure, fences that stay at 90 degrees for years not days.

I dont know of any dealers near you, maybe Scott and Sargeant are possible?

I see there is a minimax machine in West Sussex for sale, this is a modern machine but quality, made by SCM (very large Italian maker), ex college and tersa. (I hope nobody on here is looking at it!). No connection, but I know the dealer, Stuart Ive bought machines from him in the past and recently he sorted out an electrical problem for me that confounded 2 other electricians.
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