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I don't want this NVR switch

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I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 30 Oct 2015, 12:15

I would be grateful for some advice.

My SiP chip extractor comes fitted with an NVR. But I would like to fit it to a remote control switch in the socket so I do not have to cross the workshop to turn it on and off. How easy, or indeed difficult, would it be to remove / bypass the NVR on the extractor?

I appreciate any help anyone can give, but please remember I am an electrical numb skull so please explain this as if you were responding to a child of about 10 years old. Trust me, it is impossible to patronise me on this topic ;).

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Robert » 30 Oct 2015, 12:30

It will have a motor and it will be wired to the NVR switch. If you don't want the switch you need to power the motor from a plug directly.

remove the motor wires from the switch and connect them to a mains plug. Job done.

Of course the wires from the motor will be too short to just put a plug on so you will need to wire a suitable cable (such as the original mains cable that went to the switch) into the motor connection box but I was trying to get the idea across as simple as possible :)
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 30 Oct 2015, 14:18

I had a similar problem when I first built my cyclone dust collector. The motor lead goes straight into the switch box, it has spade type connectors that go on the back of the NVR. What I did was find a suitably rated manual switch with spade connectors and swapped the wires over to that. There was enough space behind NVR to just push the new switch into and replace the cover.
That might solve your problem.
But you need to check the rating of your remote control unit, when I upgraded the motor from 1HP to 3HP it was over the top for the unit I was using. I got round that by using a relay to switch the motor and the remote control socket powered the real relay. I have 2 mains leads from the control box, one for the motor and the other is the control lead. I know it sounds complex but I could supply all of the details if you need this solution.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 30 Oct 2015, 15:28

My inner ten year old is looking a bit confused by talk of relays ;). My extractor is also 3 horse power, so I think I will just look for remote switches that can handle that, seem a reasonable number out there claiming to handle 2800w plus.

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 30 Oct 2015, 18:51

Wizard9999 wrote:My inner ten year old is looking a bit confused by talk of relays ;). My extractor is also 3 horse power, so I think I will just look for remote switches that can handle that, seem a reasonable number out there claiming to handle 2800w plus.

Terry.



DONT DO IT! The inrush current for a 3hp motor could easily be 40amps and the poor little relays in these switches are just not up to it and will be short lived. A DOL starter type NVR will have a perfectly suitable contactor in it designed for the job and the remote control switch can be used to switch that perfectly safely.

Post a photo of your NVR - it might be suitable anyway.

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 31 Oct 2015, 00:37

Bob,
I am sure the NVR that Terry has will use the buttons to close the contacts. The 1HP unit I used was just a holding coil with manual buttons. I was quite pleased to find the 3HP unit from Axminster had a temperature sensor but still with manual buttons, that's why I used a relay to do the switching, just like a proper contactor.
Terry I would be quite happy to make up the relay in a box for you to use, but I will need more details about the current switch.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 31 Oct 2015, 12:01

OK, thanks for the help so far chaps. A couple of pictures of the switch

Image

Image

Do either of these give more insight into what I need to do?

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 31 Oct 2015, 12:23

I don't feel that that type are suitable for modification and that a properly rated power relay should be fitted which in turn is controlled by the remote switch. This is along the lines that Dave has written about.

Engage learning mode: :lol:

The type of NVR you have there,the start button is mechanical rather than electrical. pushing it closes the contact and a coil holds it shut. Quite often the stop is mechanical as well and forces the contacts apart when pushed. They also offer no protection to the motor which is their worst attribute (or lack of)
A dol starter usually has electrical start and stop buttons which can be remoted to other parts of the mahine as required. They also will have a thermal overload relay which will look afterthe motor in all but the most extreme fault conditions.

HTH

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 31 Oct 2015, 15:35

Terry,
Can you see if there is a diagram on the side of the switch? If there is a picture of that would help, as there appears to be more that 4 wires on the switch, it could have a temperature sensor like the one on my 3HP motor.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 31 Oct 2015, 16:13

Dave

This is the only diagram on the switch
Image

I can squeeze my phone in closer than the iPad, so this is a better picture of what is going on with the wiring.
Image

As far as I can see the blue, brown and earth come in from the power lead, earth connects to terminal on side of the machine, blue and brown go up into NVR. Then out pop red and black and the two white ones, these four then disappear into the motor. I presume it is the two white ones which are the addition.

I also looked in the manual, no diagrams or clues on what the two white ones are in that I am afraid.

Thanks again,
Terry.
Last edited by Wizard9999 on 31 Oct 2015, 16:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 31 Oct 2015, 16:41

Interesting that SIP are putting a 2hp switch on a 3hp extractor!! Cowboys!

That type of switch needs A1 connecting to 24 either directly or via a sensor in the motor.

Unsuitable for use with remote switching that Terry wants.

If there is a sensor fitted to the motor than this could be incorporated in a DOL switch based system or one using a decent relay.

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 31 Oct 2015, 18:53

Terry,

That is great, your unit has the same set-up as the Axminster one I bought, I agree with Bob, they are cutting corners the switch is under rated.
This the type of relay I used, once you get, I can send you the details of how to connect it up, walking you though how to wire it in to still use the temperature sensor and allow the remote control to work. You will end up with 2 power leads, 1 for the motor feed and the other is the control, connected to your remote control socket.
Are you up for the upgrade :?:
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 31 Oct 2015, 20:25

Guess so :? .

At some point soon the motor is going to end up on top of a cyclone which will be on top of the drum I bought, at that point it will be a real pain to reach, so I think I have little choice. I just hope you can cope with all the dumb questions I will ask :lol:. Looks like a two week lead time or the relay to get here from Hong Kong, so we both have time to Bruce ourselves for the experience!

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby kirkpoore1 » 01 Nov 2015, 05:17

Wizard9999 wrote:Guess so :? .

At some point soon the motor is going to end up on top of a cyclone which will be on top of the drum I bought, at that point it will be a real pain to reach, so I think I have little choice. I just hope you can cope with all the dumb questions I will ask :lol:. Looks like a two week lead time or the relay to get here from Hong Kong, so we both have time to Bruce ourselves for the experience!

Terry.

Terry:
On the matter of motor location, my cyclone motor is located 15feet above the floor, so i feel your pain. One thing Oneida cautioned on my 1ph motor was not to start and stop it too often in a short time( like more than 8 times per hour). Too often and the start cap may fail, leaving me out of action until fixed. This might be a consideration for you too.

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 01 Nov 2015, 10:04

Thanks Kirk, good tip. Given it appears SiP have clearly cut corners on the switch, who knows what else in the motor may be a weak link, so when set up with the remote I will be mindful not to flip it on and off between every cut just because I can.

On the corner cutting I'm not going to get overly grumpy about, knowing I was chasing the lowest price I have to accept that it was at that price point for a reason, not because SiP decided to sell it at a loss for my benefit, lol.

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 01 Nov 2015, 12:08

kirkpoore1 wrote:
Wizard9999 wrote:Guess so :? .

At some point soon the motor is going to end up on top of a cyclone which will be on top of the drum I bought, at that point it will be a real pain to reach, so I think I have little choice. I just hope you can cope with all the dumb questions I will ask :lol:. Looks like a two week lead time or the relay to get here from Hong Kong, so we both have time to Bruce ourselves for the experience!

Terry.

Terry:
On the matter of motor location, my cyclone motor is located 15feet above the floor, so i feel your pain. One thing Oneida cautioned on my 1ph motor was not to start and stop it too often in a short time( like more than 8 times per hour). Too often and the start cap may fail, leaving me out of action until fixed. This might be a consideration for you too.

Kirk



The sort of start capacitor that limited the number of starts per hour tended to be the non polarised electrolytic types that I've not seen used for a very long time. These needed to chemically recover after a starting shock.
Not to say they are not still in use in the US where due to lower voltage, the start caps have to be electrically larger and may still use the older types.

If a modern UK spec motor still restricts the number of starts per hour then it is more likely to be due to woefully inadequate amounts of copper in the starter winding than the capacitor.

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 04 Mar 2016, 10:04

DaveL wrote:Terry,

That is great, your unit has the same set-up as the Axminster one I bought, I agree with Bob, they are cutting corners the switch is under rated.
This the type of relay I used, once you get, I can send you the details of how to connect it up, walking you though how to wire it in to still use the temperature sensor and allow the remote control to work. You will end up with 2 power leads, 1 for the motor feed and the other is the control, connected to your remote control socket.
Are you up for the upgrade :?:


As usual, I am working at a rather pedestrian pace :oops: and have just come back to this topic. I followed Dave's link again and was going to buy one of these, but delivery could be lengthy with estimate anything up to 18 April. As the seller is sending it to me from Hong Kong at their cost I have no complaints, but ideally I'd like it sooner so that I can maintain my limited momentum.

Can anyone with a knowledge of matters electric point me to an equivalent part sourced from the UK so I get my hands on it a little sooner? Sorry for being dumb, but I am worried I will end up buying the wrong one.

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 04 Mar 2016, 10:19

CPC or RS should have something similar. With a few days delivery turn round.
CPC postage should be free. RS have a wider range but charge more and charge for delivery (under £20 I think)
Bob

CPC part no SW04988 should do nicely. Make sure you have a ratchet type crimp tool to put on the spade connectors with - preferred (or good soldering skill).
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 04 Mar 2016, 13:05

My idea was that you ordered the relay back in October so it would be here when you needed it.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 04 Mar 2016, 13:11

DaveL wrote:My idea was that you ordered the relay back in October so it would be here when you needed it.

I expect that you were a Boy Scout Dave and possibly that Terry was not! :lol:

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 04 Mar 2016, 14:58

9fingers wrote:
DaveL wrote:My idea was that you ordered the relay back in October so it would be here when you needed it.

I expect that you were a Boy Scout Dave and possibly that Terry was not! :lol:

Bob


Spot on Bob, as my wife says, years of working in strategy have left me with a it of a blind spot on execution :oops: .

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby old » 04 Mar 2016, 15:20

I removed my nvr 3 years ago on my SIP extractor with no problems .I used 2x double end spade luca connector (used on Car wiring)to join the luca connectors wires which are on 13 to 14 There are two wires on 14. and 23 to 24 made a plate to cover the hole, job done.

Mod Edit: Duplicate post removed. Bob
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 04 Mar 2016, 15:32

Wizard9999 wrote:
9fingers wrote:
DaveL wrote:My idea was that you ordered the relay back in October so it would be here when you needed it.

I expect that you were a Boy Scout Dave and possibly that Terry was not! :lol:

Bob


Spot on Bob, as my wife says, years of working in strategy have left me with a it of a blind spot on execution :oops: .

Terry.


:lol: I seemed to have spent most of my working like having to make the output of strategists, forecasters and marketeers come true!


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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 07 Mar 2016, 10:16

old wrote:I removed my nvr 3 years ago on my SIP extractor with no problems .I used 2x double end spade luca connector (used on Car wiring)to join the luca connectors wires which are on 13 to 14 There are two wires on 14. and 23 to 24 made a plate to cover the hole, job done.

Thanks for that. As you will have gathered electrics are not my thing, so I am not sure I completely follow this. Are you saying you effectively wired it so that there is no switch on the machine, the on-off control comes solely from switching the socket on and off?

Thanks again,
Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Robert » 07 Mar 2016, 10:36

Which is another way of doing what I said in post 2

Motor wired straight to mains plug.

:)
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