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I don't want this NVR switch

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Mar 2016, 11:15

Don't panic Dave, caught me by surprise as well :lol: , I still need to order my ducting.

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 29 Mar 2016, 11:50

I have now got the bits in a jiffy bag, and will post them today, here is a guide for the installation.

In the bag you will find:
ImageIMG_20160328_172505 by Dave, on Flickr
A mains lead, fitted with a pair of spade connectors and a gland to go into the side of the switch box.
ImageIMG_20160328_172425 by Dave, on Flickr
A pair of male spade connectors, you only need one but I have put two in in case you have a problem crimping the first one, you get a second chance.
ImageIMG_20160328_172436 by Dave, on Flickr
A blanking plate to replace the fitted NVR switch, you need to completely remove the switch to make room for the relay in the box.

OK so you need the remove the front of the switch box, select a place for the gland to go and drill a hole of the correct size. Make sure you have the wires out of the way so not to damage them.
ImageIMG_20150705_161917 (2) by Dave, on Flickr
This is where I put it on my unit.
After fitting the gland in the box, you should swap the wires over from the switch to the relay. They all have spade connectors fitted to them.
The mains lead is straight forward, they go on the middle pair of the large spades on the relay.
The leads going to the motor will need a small adjustment, one of them has a smaller wire in addition to the motor lead, this is for the thermal cut out, you need to cut the small wire off, leaving the motor wire connected to the spade.
ImageIMG_20150704_194619 by Dave, on Flickr
The wires on the switch, note the small brown wire connected to the motor wire, that is the one you need to carefully cut off the connector.
Then the two motor leads go on the large spades in the middle of the relay.
ImageIMG_20160325_120417 by Dave, on Flickr
All the wires on, sorry I don't have a picture without the control wires in place.
Now you need to fit the wire you cut free with one of the male spade connectors, carefully strip about 3/16" (that is 5mm) slide the connector over the stripped end and crimp it on. If you don't have crimp pliers, you should be able to do it with an ordinary pair of pliers, it will not look as neat.
Now you need to connect the new mains lead along with the wires for the thermal cut out, to the relay.
If the cut out wires are the same colours as mine, connect the brown of both leads together and them the blue from the main lead and the black from the cut out go on the small spade connector on the relay.
ImageIMG_20160325_123026 by Dave, on Flickr
You are almost finished!
Find a bit of insulation tape and cover the unused spade connectors on the relay.
Unscrew the NVR switch from the box front and use the same screws to fit the blanking plate.
Tuck the relay into the box and refit the front, should look something like this.
ImageIMG_20150705_165253 by Dave, on Flickr
I have put a label on the new mains lead so you know that is the one for the remote control.
You should now be ready to test it all works, it should be OK but if you have any questions on the instructions, just ask.
Regards,
Dave
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 29 Mar 2016, 23:10

Dave

Thanks so much for taking the trouble to make such a detailed post on this and for sending me the bits and pieces. I will take a look in the next day or two, hopefully I will not be too dumb and will be able to follow your instructions. I'll report back.

Again, thanks so much.

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby TrimTheKing » 30 Mar 2016, 16:40

:text-bravo:

Magnificent Dave.

Cheers
Mark
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 12 Apr 2016, 22:41

Dave

Had a look at the NVR and relay today with a view to wiring it up. I'm sorry to do this to you, but my wires are different colours and I am a bit lost on one aspect of your description as I read it as referencing the middle connectors on the relay twice (sure it is my lack of comprehension, not your description). I wondered if I could do it by numbers not colours?

My NVR has this picture on the side, which looks exactly the same as yours
Image

On mine the wires from the mains lead go to the in terminals, 13 and 23. The brown wire (live?) goes to 13 and the blue wire (neutral?) goes to 23. I then have a pair of wires connected to 14, mine are red and white, I think the white one is the thermal cut out wire that needs to be cut off (coloured brown on yours). Then there is a black wire connected to 24. Finally there is a single white wire connected to the connection on its own with no number in the diagram.

On my relay there are eight points where I can make a connection numbered 1 to 8. The first six are horizontal (if I hold the relay so the numbers are the right way up), 7 and 8 are vertical and below 1 to 8.
Image

In your post you say "The mains lead is straight forward, they go on the middle pair of the large spades on the relay." OK so I remove the live and neutral from 13 and 23 on the NVR. By the "middle pair of large spades" do you mean 3 and 4 on the relay, I.e. the middle row of the three horizontal rows? If so does it matter which way round they go?

Now moving on to the wires that go to the motor. I think the white wire paired to the red one that are both connected to 14 must be the thermal cutout connection. So, I would cut the white wire away from the brown. Then I need to take the wires from 14 and 24 off and connect them to the relay. This is when I get a little confused by your post, you say "Then the two motor leads go on the large spades in the middle of the relay." But this is the second mention of "middle", so I am not sure which pair on the relay you mean. If my connection of the wires from the mains to terminals 3 and 4 on the relay as described above is correct, can you tell me which terminals on the relay I should connect these wires to? Based on your pictures I would guess 5 and 6.

Again, does it matter which way around? As a starter for ten I assume that if the wire from 13 on the NVR has moved to 3 on the relay then the wire from 14 on the relay should also go to an odd numbered terminal on the relay, such as 5, correct?

Then I start to struggle more. I get that I need to put a spade end on the white wire I have cut of the brown wire originally connected to 14 on the NVR, but do I understand correctly that I then link this to the brown wire (live) on the new mains cable you sent me?

Then I connect the blue from the mains lead you sent goes onto the relay. If I read you correctly it will be onto one of the two vertical connections, presumably (looking at you picture) this blue wire needs to be on the same side as the blue wire from the original mains lead that is now on the relay.

Then finally, the white wire that is currently connected to the single unnumbered terminal on the NVR gets moved to the other vertical terminal on the relay.

Once this is all done terminals 1 and 2 on the relay will be the only ones that are not used on the relay and these get taped. Do I connect earth from the new cable you sent me to the same point as the ordinal earth is connected to within the box?

Sorry if this looks like I am playing back to you what you said above, but I want to make sure I get it right.

Confirmation or correction would be very much appreciated.

Terry.

EDIT: in an effort to understand what I am doing rather than just follow instructions I'll say what I think is happening and somebody can tell me what I have got wrong. The bottom two terminals on the relay (7 and 8) are where power comes in, in this case instead of connecting directly to the relay the live is diverted via the thermal cut off. This means the the circuit into the relay also 'powers' the thermal cut off. The six terminals running horizontally on the relay (1 to 6) are what the relay controls. Wen power is sent to the relay it turns a magnetic switch on that connects terminals 3/4 and 5/6, forming a circuit so the original mains lead now provides power to the DX motor. When the power from the new mains call is turned off the magnetic switch is turned off and there is no circuit to get the power to the motor.

If this is correct (though I am sure ot phased correctly) I have two questions.
1. Why connect the thermal cutout to the mains power to the relay and not to the circuit the relay switches on and off?
2. What is the function of terminals 1 and 2 on the relay?
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 13 Apr 2016, 10:28

Hi Terry,

I don't have a problem with you asking questions, it how we all learn. :D

I think you have it sorted but I will go over the connections using the numbers, I did not do it that way before as I did not make a note of the numbers on the relay and it is now 8' up in the air and hard for me to read them.

The mains in is on 13 and 23 of the switch and they go to 3 and 4 on the relay.
The motor is connected to 14 and 24 on the switch and they go to 5 and 6 on the relay.
It does not matter which way the two wires in the pair are connected.

7 and 8 on the relay are the coil connections and applying power to them makes the relay close the contacts we have the motor and the mains connected to, when the power is removed the mains is connected to the unused pair of spades, 1 and 2, that's why I told you to tape them up, there should not be anything metal for them to touch but its best to be careful.

So the new mains lead has its blue wire connected to 7 on the relay. You are correct about the white wire you cut free from the red motor wire, that needs the spade crimped on to it that is then connected to the brown of the new mains lead. The white wire on the switch goes on 8 on the relay.
The reason for the thermal cutout is wired in to the control circuit and not directly to the motor, the contacts are not up to switching the high current used by the motor, but is more than able to break the circuit that is controlling the relay.

The earth wire indeed should be connected to the same place as the existing original earth wire, sorry I missed that completely. :oops:
Regards,
Dave
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 13 Apr 2016, 12:34

Thanks again or your time and patience, Dave. I have had to come to London today for the part time day job, but armed with this I will look to connect it up tomorrow.

Only two practical issues remain. First, how to drill the hole for the gland with it up on the wall tucked in a corner and second, can I find where I put the screws so I can fit the replacement cover when I am finished. Never one to make life easy for myself :lol: .

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 13 Apr 2016, 20:11

Got home earlier than expected so started on this. Trying to do it when the extractor is already wall mounted is not to be recommended :lol: .

Thwarted by two things, the connector on the white wire going to A1 (I previously described this is as unnumbered, but with the switch removed I can see it is called A1) is a smaller female connector than the other four, but all the connection points on my relay are the same size, so I need to cut off the small one and fit a bigger one. Also, trying to do this in situ is making connecting the earth difficult, so think I will add one of the round donut like connector jobbies onto the earth on the mans wire going to the relay, that should make it easier. So it is off to Toolstation in the morning for the bits, so while I'm there makes sense to pick up a cheap crimping tool.

I'll get there, sooner or later :D .

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 13 Apr 2016, 20:22

I think the relay I have must of had smaller spades for the coil, I don't remember having to redo that wire. A pair of crimping pliers is a useful thing to have and does increase your tool count.
Hopefully it will all be finished soon and the joy of the remote operation will make the fear of doing electrics fade from your memory.
Regards,
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 13 Apr 2016, 20:33

Think it may be the other way around Dave, i.e. the connector that went to A1 on your switch was the same size as all the others and not smaller. I only say that because the connectors you have fitted on the mains cable you sent and the male connector for fitting to the wire I cut are all the larger size, so will fit the relay perfectly.

Don't tell anyone else, but I may be getting the bug Dave. Once I have the crimping tool and the selection box of crimp connectors I have a thought about using the NVR I have taken off the DX somewhere else in the workshop.

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 13 Apr 2016, 20:49

Terry,
Take care to get a decent crimper with a ratchet mechanism. The very cheap ones don't have this facility and not only need gorilla grip strength hands but also can be released before the crimp is completed.

Toolstation sell both types. £16.75 for proper type

You might get a ratchet type on flea bay cheaper?

hth

Bob
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 14 Apr 2016, 21:13

Just come in from the workshop, jobs a good 'un :eusa-dance: :eusa-dance: :eusa-dance:
I have to say I was not expecting it to work when I pressed the remote button for the first time, but it did!

Thanks for all the help, especially Dave for taking the time and trouble to prepare the additional cable and new cover plate.

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 14 Apr 2016, 21:51

I am pleased it all came together in the end, well done for following it through.
Regards,
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Andyp » 15 Apr 2016, 08:31

Well done Terry, if it is any consolation you are not the only one who would have struggled with kind of thing.
cheers

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Wizard9999 » 15 Apr 2016, 09:28

Andyp wrote:Well done Terry, if it is any consolation you are not the only one who would have struggled with kind of thing.


Kind of you to say so Andy, but I think I take ignorance on this stuff to a whole new level :lol: But hopefully at least a few of the things I have learned through the process will stick. At least I now understand broadly what a relay is and how it can be used. Oh so slowly my knowledge of electrickery is improving, which can only be a good thing.

One big learning point going forward is do the electrical work before putting the wires in an inaccessible position; think it would have been easier if the DX wasn't attached to the wall with the motor wiring tucked into the corner of the workshop :lol: .

Terry.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Rotti » 01 Jun 2017, 16:44

Hi,

With reference to the removal of NVR switch - the pictures within the post do not clearly show the relay being fitted.

I have found the below relay for £24 on Amazon.......would this be the correct relay to use ?

RELAY, PANEL, DPCO, 240V AC, 30A

Thanks very much
Rotti
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 01 Jun 2017, 19:03

Hi Rotti and welcome to the the woodhaven.

£24 sounds too expensive to me. based on your description, I've found this one for about half that price.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/RELAY-T92P11A2 ... +AC%2C+30A

hth

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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Rotti » 01 Jun 2017, 21:33

Bob,

Thanks very much..........been here 5 minutes and saved money already.

Just to confirm - this is the relay to use when doing an ident swap on my SIP 01954 extractor - NVR off and
relay on, to allow use of remote control.

Thanks again
Rotti
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby 9fingers » 01 Jun 2017, 22:39

Yes that should do it. The remote socket powers the relay coil and the relay contacts switch the motor power.
Dave L is your man with the circuit details of what he did.
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Rotti » 07 Jun 2017, 17:31

DaveL

I have my relay and plan to do the job at the weekend.

Any chance I could get a copy of your wiring plan for the relay terminals.
Below is a picture of the relay I purchased........differnt numbers to that of earlier post.

Thanks in advance

Rotti

Image
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 07 Jun 2017, 19:00

I will need to draw it out for you, does your SIP unit have the thermal cut out the same as the two units that we have already modified?
Regards,
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Rotti » 07 Jun 2017, 22:27

Dave,

Thanks for getting back.

Sorry, not opened NVR and looked inside yet.
Will open tomorrow and check cables.

Thanks
Colin
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby Rotti » 08 Jun 2017, 16:08

Dave,

It would appear that wiring is the same as previously described ; As per pictures.

Thanks
Colin

Image

Image
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Re: I don't want this NVR switch

Postby DaveL » 11 Jun 2017, 09:39

Rotti wrote:DaveL

I have my relay and plan to do the job at the weekend.

Any chance I could get a copy of your wiring plan for the relay terminals.
Below is a picture of the relay I purchased........differnt numbers to that of earlier post.

Thanks in advance

Rotti

Image



OK, sorry for the delay, but here is what you need.

The motor should be connected to numbers 2 and 6
The power lead that is not controlled by the remote should be connected to numbers 4 and 8
The controlled power lead should have the blue connected to number 0, the brown should be connected to one of the white wires that goes to the thermal cut out and the other white lead should go to number 1
A bit of tape over numbers 3 and 7 to ensure they don't short to anything would be a good plan.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards,
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