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Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Tusses » 09 Jun 2016, 17:43

justaskin wrote:Hi Andy P

Take a look at Screwfix they have a Electric shower pull cord switch rated at 45A with a neon indicter Sub £10

their outlets are all over the UK even Dover.

Richard


lol .. Check his location :-) .. just a quick ferry ride then ....
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 09 Jun 2016, 17:47

justaskin wrote:Hi Andy P

Take a look at Screwfix they have a Electric shower pull cord switch rated at 45A with a neon indicter Sub £10

their outlets are all over the UK even Dover.

Richard


Richard, thanks for that, But in the interests of self learning and enrichment I might try and follow Terry's example that anyone can do the seemingly impossible with the right advise and guidance and an awful lot of patience.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 09 Jun 2016, 17:48

Tusses wrote:
justaskin wrote:Hi Andy P

Take a look at Screwfix they have a Electric shower pull cord switch rated at 45A with a neon indicter Sub £10

their outlets are all over the UK even Dover.

Richard


lol .. Check his location :-) .. just a quick ferry ride then ....


I cross the water 3 or 4 times a year so not really a problem but I may just take the hi-tec route.
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Andy
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 09 Jun 2016, 17:50

9fingers wrote:There you go!
Image
Bob


Thanks Bob, although I was worried you might produce something like that.

Let’s see if I understand it.
1) My existing RC socket plugs into an existing wall socket.
2) A box containing the relay plugs into the RC socket.
3) The Camvac plugs into the box containing the relay.

What I would like to do is use a surface mounted double socket like this http://www.castorama.fr/store/Double-pr ... ction=jump
One socket is used for the Camvac, the other socket to be removed and will house the relay, I‘ll have to check that it will fit.

All that remains for me to understand is how to connect the relay to
a) the cable with a plug on the end that plugs in to the RC Socket and
b) the socket that the Camvac will plug into

Am I getting there?
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 09 Jun 2016, 19:08

Nothing to worry about Andy just follow the picture!

Yes you have got it. Connections as per DaveL/Wizzard thread using crimp on spade connectors.
blue ones should fit the cable OK internal wiring should be 1.5mm^2 minimum stranded wire

The coil driving wires don't need to be that thick electrically but they give mechanical strength and mean that you only need one size of crimp. Buy or borrow a decent ratchet crimping tool to make proper joints.

Bob
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 10 Jun 2016, 07:45

Are those relays available from a more conventional source that does not require Paypal. What are the key specs that I need to search for? I am sure all these letters and numbers mean something but apart from 220v and 8 pin I am lost. (JQX-30F-2Z Coil AC 220V 8 Pin DPDT 2NO 2NC Electronmagnetic Relay).

When the time comes will you be able to translate you picture into where the live, neutral and earth wires go, in and out of the relay (please stop calling it a coil as it confuses me :D ).
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 10 Jun 2016, 10:04

Is amazon any more acceptable to you Andy?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/JQX-30F-Plug-G ... JQX-30F-2Z

Relays have contacts that do the work and relays have coils that operate them - get used to it :lol:
Diagrams convey information and the symbols look like the things they represent eg coil looks like a spring.

The relay will usually have a diagram on it telling you which connection is which.

DPDT = double pole double throw NO = normally open NC = normally closed
other related abbreviations

SPDT, DPST you can work out from above and CO = changeover All just the same as abbreviations electrical and light switches. No magic no witchcraft :lol:

Incidentally when I use paypal on ebay, the first choice is to pay by paypal account or credit card. Do you see that option?
Everyone to their own choice but having used Paypal for many years they have been flawless and on a couple of times provided full refunds on frustrated deals as well as interacting seamlessly with ebay.

hth

Bob

Amazon.fr version at higher rip off price

https://www.amazon.fr/Plug-Type-Puissan ... JQX-30F-2Z
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 10 Jun 2016, 14:47

OK Bob, relais ordered. Might be a month before it gets here.

Will work out how to wire it when it arrives but it seems to me there are 8 terminals on the relais and I will only have 3 wires in and 3 wires out.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 10 Jun 2016, 17:20

Andyp wrote:OK Bob, relais ordered. Might be a month before it gets here.

Will work out how to wire it when it arrives but it seems to me there are 8 terminals on the relais and I will only have 3 wires in and 3 wires out.

Well actually it is 4 wires in and 2 out?? plus the earth which passes straight through.

Pop your thinking head on Andy and all might become clear. Clue: look at the diagram on the picture of the product and compare with my diagram (nb the modern (dare I say EU) way of drawing a coil is a rectangle not the older (easier) symbol I have used.
second clue: what happens to terminals on switches you don't need in house wiring?

I'm not being deliberately difficult but reckon if you work things out for yourself, you will possibly understand and remember better than if I say "do this" and "do that" etc?

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 11 Jun 2016, 10:19

9fingers wrote:
Andyp wrote:OK Bob, relais ordered. Might be a month before it gets here.

Will work out how to wire it when it arrives but it seems to me there are 8 terminals on the relais and I will only have 3 wires in and 3 wires out.

Well actually it is 4 wires in and 2 out?? plus the earth which passes straight through.

Pop your thinking head on Andy and all might become clear. Clue: look at the diagram on the picture of the product and compare with my diagram (nb the modern (dare I say EU) way of drawing a coil is a rectangle not the older (easier) symbol I have used.
second clue: what happens to terminals on switches you don't need in house wiring?

I'm not being deliberately difficult but reckon if you work things out for yourself, you will possibly understand and remember better than if I say "do this" and "do that" etc?

Bob


I'd promised myself to park this tread until the relais arrives but then I read
9fingers wrote: Well actually it is 4 wires in and 2 out??Bob

Well I know I failed the GCHQ quiz and every O Level I took and this makes make me feel even more stupider (I know). Where does the 4th wire come from? The relay will connect to the RC Socket (or so I thought) via a conventional mains lead, brown (live) blue (neutral) and yellow/green (earth). Even I can count to 3. :D
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 11 Jun 2016, 10:35

Methinks (methought?) you confuse "wires" with "cables" but even allowing for that I cant get three cables in and three cables out so I'm confused at your confusion :lol:

Inputs are remote switched L&N plus unswitched L&N =4

Outputs are relay switched L&N =2

plus direct through earth making 5 in, 3 out strictly

Now although that makes a total of 8 wires and you have 8 pins on the relay, this does NOT mean you use all 8 on the relay.

"for tonights homework............" :lol:

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Wizard9999 » 11 Jun 2016, 20:50

Andy

Just read this whole thread, I'm here cheering you on from the sidelines :eusa-clap:. And my relay suggested a one month delivery but actually came much sooner, so hopefully that will be the case for you too.

Terry.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 11 Jun 2016, 20:59

Thanks Terry, I am worried that Bob must think I am taking the pi$$. But at the moment I could read your thread a million times and still not get it. I have read a number of "how to wire a relay tutorials" but none of them do what I am planning.
When the relay gets here I will see if it is obvious as Bob suggests.

Oh how I wish that I had paid more attention to science/phsyics at school. Maybe greek would have helped too :D
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 11 Jun 2016, 21:26

Andy, If you can explain to me where the lack of understanding starts then I will do my best to explain from then on either here in public or via PM if you prefer.

Bob
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Tusses » 11 Jun 2016, 21:31

I haven't really paid much attention to this , as Bob is more than capable :-)
I know electronics .. so I'll have a read though, and see if I can explain in "baby steps" .. or just another perspective :)

won't be tonight though .. maybe tomorrow
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Wizard9999 » 11 Jun 2016, 22:25

Andy

If it is any help I have to say it was much easier for me to understand the instructions Dave provided when I had the relay, it all made sense then. Of course, as Dave had done exactly the same as I was doing I had the benefit of his excellent pictures, so I had a real advantage there.

Terry.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Deejay » 12 Jun 2016, 08:40

Morning Andy

This might help with the basic principles.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/relay.htm

Cheers

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 12 Jun 2016, 09:13

OK guys thanks for keeping with me. A lot going on here with the family at the moment so best if we pick this up again when the relay arrives.
I do understand what the relay is doing, effectively reducing the load (amps) on the RC socket. It is wiring the relay that has me confused. As I say when the relay arrives I'll get all the bits together and if I still don't get it I'll come back here.
The solution and my incompetence may well help others in the future so happy for it to remain public.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 28 Jul 2016, 15:01

OK, I am nearly ready to have another crack at this.

Here are most of the bits laid out - I still need the crimps and crimping tool and a box to keep the dust off the relay.

Image

The idea is that remote socket will open and close the relay which will switch the current on and off to the socket into which the Camvac will be plugged.

And here is the close up of the relay with wiring diagram.

Image

It would help me a lot if someone could tell be which of the blue, brown & yellow/green wires from each cable attach to which of the 8 numbered terminals on the relay.
A handsome reward of beer tokens awaits :D

advTHANKSance
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby RogerS » 28 Jul 2016, 15:45

Yellow and greens go together and not to anything else!

Brown from the remote goes to 7 and 5 (7 is one connection to the relay coil)

Blue from the remote goes to 8 and 6 (8 is the other connection to the coil).

Brown to your Camvac socket goes to 3

Blue to your Camvac socket goes to 4

So what you end up with is the live feed going into the relay contacts on 5 which is a changeover contact. When the relay is de-energised 5 is connected to 1 (you can see this in the diagram). When you energise the relay(coil) from your remote switch then the contacts changeover and 5 now connects to 3 and feeds your Camvac socket.

The above assumes that the diagram on the relay is showing the contacts in their de-energised state.

If you have a mutimeter with ohms then when the relay is de-energised, you should measure zero resistance between 1 and 5 and also zero resistance between 2 and 6
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 28 Jul 2016, 15:51

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Please make sure advice given is correct! nothing worse that giving the wrong answer to someone!

Give me some time and I'll give the correct answer. Busy right now

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Robert » 28 Jul 2016, 16:37

I agree with Bob :)

There needs to be a second mains lead with a plug on it. power to the camvac comes from a standard socket and the missing lead. the one from the RC socket just powers the relay coil and nothing else.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 28 Jul 2016, 16:56

Hi Andy,

you have a second plug and lead missing from your collection of parts.

With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source? If you looked at my diagram earlier and checked off the parts you might have spotted that?

Here is the revised diagram with terminal number and cable colours marked on.

Image

Hope this helps and I really would like to think that you understand why it is correct and also why Rogers version is wrong, in that hopefully you can extend your knowledge/understanding rather than just copy and not learn anything.

HTH

Bob

PS my drawing programme does not have green and yellow stripe colour fill but Green is earth above.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Tusses » 28 Jul 2016, 18:51

TBH Bob .. that isn't clear to me ! lol ..

is the "Standard Socket" the Mains in ?
if so, how does the "switch" get triggered ?

if the remote socket is Mains in, How is it triggered , and not "on" when the mains is on ?

I am assuming that the machine on off should trigger the remote ?

Maybe I should re-read this from the start ! lol
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 28 Jul 2016, 19:02

Thanks Bob & Robert

9fingers wrote: With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source?


The Camvac will be plugged into the grey socket on the right which is what 5 & 6 will be connected to.

What I am missing is the plug and socket to which 3 & 4 are connected to.
This is the bit I have misunderstood. I had not grasped that the relay would need two power sources, one just to power the relay (7 & 8) and one to power the Camvac (3 & 4). Have I got it?

Roger, I appreciate your help too. I hope that when I have finished we will have all learned something .
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