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Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby 9fingers » 28 Jul 2016, 19:07

Andyp wrote:Thanks Bob & Robert

9fingers wrote: With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source?


The Camvac will be plugged into the grey socket on the right which is what 5 & 6 will be connected to.

What I am missing is the plug and socket to which 3 & 4 are connected to.
This is the bit I have misunderstood. I had not grasped that the relay would need two power sources, one just to power the relay (7 & 8) and one to power the Camvac (3 & 4). Have I got it?

Roger, I appreciate your help too. I hope that when I have finished we will have all learned something .



Andy, I think you have got it now BUT what I cannot understand is how you have had my diagram for some time and not grasped that it needed two power inputs. I had shown two sockets at the top of the diagram.
Put another way, how could your first impressions ever have relieved the remote socket of the current drawn by the camvac?
Bob
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 28 Jul 2016, 19:52

Bob,
9fingers wrote:
Andyp wrote:Thanks Bob & Robert

9fingers wrote: With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source?


The Camvac will be plugged into the grey socket on the right which is what 5 & 6 will be connected to.

What I am missing is the plug and socket to which 3 & 4 are connected to.
This is the bit I have misunderstood. I had not grasped that the relay would need two power sources, one just to power the relay (7 & 8) and one to power the Camvac (3 & 4). Have I got it?

Roger, I appreciate your help too. I hope that when I have finished we will have all learned something .



Andy, I think you have got it now BUT what I cannot understand is how you have had my diagram for some time and not grasped that it needed two power inputs. I had shown two sockets at the top of the diagram.
Put another way, how could your first impressions ever have relieved the remote socket of the current drawn by the camvac?
Bob


Okay, okay. It all seems kind of obvious now. Thanks for sticking with me. It may have taken a while to sink in but It seems that I have not been the only one, just the one prepared to stick his head over the parapet. :D Mighty glad it was not shot off BTW :D

I'll get back on this when complete, but that may be a week or two.
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cheers
Andy
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem

Postby Andyp » 20 Aug 2016, 17:22

For any late comers the domestic remote control socket controlling the Camvac was not man enough to cope with the 2kw load when both Camvac motors are on and kept cutting out.
The solution was to use the RC socket to control a relay.

Cost:-
relay £7.14 inc delivery from Chiwan.
10 female connectors €2.30 (actually cheaper to buy 100)
1 crimping tool €8.00, cheapest I could find off the shelf but does the job.

It works, not that I ever doubted it would.

Indebted to Bob for his excellent drawings and never ending patience coping with my ineptitude in understanding them and for reassuring my at the last minute that the lovely blue green flash provided by the relay when switching off is quite normal and for advising me in no uncertain terms that I could not just cut off the earth wires.

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED

Postby DaveL » 20 Aug 2016, 17:51

I am pleased you got there in the end.
Regards,
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED

Postby Andyp » 21 Aug 2016, 12:14

Back to square one.
Yesterdays test was just a quick on and off again after just a couple of seconds. Today I have tried to use the Camvac in earnest and after about 10 seconds use the remote socket triggers the relay. I have tried on other tools in the workshop without an issue so how comes the relay triggers when attached to the Camvac?

Double checked Bob's diagram and definitely all connected correctly.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby 9fingers » 21 Aug 2016, 12:37

I suspect that you are suffering from radio interference from the spawn of satan brush motors in the camvac.
There is usually a filter inside the camvac but it is only a token.

Try plugging the remote receiver in as far as possible from the camvac ie inside your work area and use an extension lead between the remote output and the relay box and see if it works better.

Bob
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby Andyp » 21 Aug 2016, 14:38

After extensive testing the closest I can have the remote socket without it tripping is in the garage, a good 25 yards from the workshop. I had it running for a good 20mins while I cut some oak bowl blanks on the bandsaw but not really practical to leave the workshop and walk nearly to the garage door to turn off the Camvac.

So it looks as if it is radio interference rather than the RC socket's ability to cope with the load from the Camvac.
Do I try and other RC socket or do I go back to plan A and have a pull switch on he ceiling?
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby 9fingers » 21 Aug 2016, 14:53

Somewhere on the remote transmitter it should state the radio frequency it uses.
170 ish MHz, 430 ish and 860 ish MHz. you could try one of a higher or radically different frequency.

I can bring as decent filter when I come over which might help?

Bob
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby Andyp » 21 Aug 2016, 16:09

Bob, the remote states a freq of 433.92 mhz. A quick search reveals all the obvious outlets have RC sockets on the same frequency.

Tell me more about the "decent filter". Can I buy and fit myself? Not that you are not welcome or course but I would like to solve this problem ASAP as it is driving me nuts.

When you are next over this way?
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby 9fingers » 21 Aug 2016, 16:33

Filter will be one from my junk box and needs fitting where the power enters the camvac. Possibly as a wart on the outside. We will be over around end of September.
I might have a ferrite polo I could send you to try. I'll have a look in a while and see what I have handy.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby Andyp » 21 Aug 2016, 17:16

Do you mean something like this?

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby 9fingers » 21 Aug 2016, 20:35

Well sort of but this is a grown up one.

Image

You wind the power cable through as many times as possible like this and locate it as near to the source of interference or crapvac as we like to think of it as!

Image

Image

I'll get it into the post to you tomorrow. Dont drop it! they are made of a brittle iron loaded ceramic with limited bounce factor.

Cheers

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby Andyp » 21 Aug 2016, 21:06

Thanks Bob, I'll see you right when you pop by.

Do you think i can loop the cable through it without having to remove either the plug or unwire the cable from the Camvac.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby 9fingers » 21 Aug 2016, 21:24

Andyp wrote:Thanks Bob, I'll see you right when you pop by.

Do you think i can loop the cable through it without having to remove either the plug or unwire the cable from the Camvac.


Don't worry it came out the scrap box.....
No Andy do it properly with the plug off and the ring as close to source of the interference. You want as many turns through the toroid as possible for best effect.

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby Andyp » 22 Aug 2016, 08:05

OK Bob, will do. A bit of a pain to unclip the whole route of the cable but I'll give it a go.

Andy
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby 9fingers » 22 Aug 2016, 08:13

Andyp wrote:OK Bob, will do. A bit of a pain to unclip the whole route of the cable but I'll give it a go.

Andy

Or make the filter from a new short piece of cable and join it into the lead to the camvac. I'll put some chocolate block in the parcel for you.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby Andyp » 22 Aug 2016, 08:59

No need for blocks of chocolate Bob, I have plenty of terminal blocks. Unless you mean the real think of course. :D
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby 9fingers » 22 Aug 2016, 09:45

Andyp wrote:No need for blocks of chocolate Bob, I have plenty of terminal blocks. Unless you mean the real think of course. :D



All packed up before I read this Andy. No problem I have loads - buy em in bulk pack of 12 sticks in three sizes.
Never knowingly understocked!

Just off to post office now

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - NOT SORTED

Postby Andyp » 01 Sep 2016, 12:50

IT WORKS - again.

Thanks to Bob and the addition of a ferrite toroid I have the RC socket and Camvac working normally again.

I managed 6 loops of cable around the ferrite toroid right close to the Camvac. A quick re-routing of the cable back to the workshop and so far so good.

Image

So the problem was not the RC socket not coping with the power surge when the Camvac was switched on but a failure somewhere of the RFI suppression. I will continue to use the relay as it will protect the RC socket from future wear.

Here is Bob's explanation of likely causes
1) Increased source of RFI from the camvac, changes in brush wear, progressive or total failure of the feeble RFI filter in the camvac. These are call delta capacitors and marginally effective as they have no series inductance (these are notorious for going bang or phutt with age and fail in a way that the machine continues to work)

2) More effective coupling of the radiated interference into the RC socket. This include wiring changes, differing layout of metal objects in the radio path etc even the presence of bodies - 150lbs of wet meat make a difference.

3) Failure/degradation of components in the RC socket, thus conduction more interference into the receiver electronics

4) Battery condition and or failure degradation of the the transmitter unit causing it to transmit reduced power. Even how you hold it can make a difference. This latter class would normally only mean that it would become difficult to turn off.

5) Insufficient coding strength in the commands sent over the wireless link meaning that there is insufficient difference between the signal sent to turn off and the pattern of interference from the camvac such that the receiver becomes confused and interprests the RFI signal as an "off" coded command.


So apart from not hanging my road kill carcasses (see point 2) in the barn I do not think there is much else I can do.

Thanks again Bob.
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cheers
Andy
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

Postby justaskin » 05 Sep 2016, 07:00

Yet another lesson in life.
After getting details from Bob for the relay. I went on line then to Amaz!! on the thursday for a relay for a fiver delivered free saying one in stock and delivery by the 30th Aug. Assuming the stock item was in the UK paid on PP the following day got the blurb its coming from HK. On complaining about the wait, I was told I never have stock in the UK, my query so how come you have one left and delivery buy the tuesday. Offered a rebate and got the relay on Saturday the 3rd.

Oh well just got to rig it up. Tested the relay all AOK. No RFI probs, only got to remember where I last put the sender :lol:

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

Postby Andyp » 05 Sep 2016, 10:05

Glad you got sorted Richard.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

Postby 9fingers » 05 Sep 2016, 10:36

I buy quite few bits and bobs from HK and China mainly via ebay and sometimes via Amazon.

Some items take about 2-3weeks and come with Chinese/HK post marks and customs forms etc etc but there is a second business model operated by some sellers that I've observed.

The ads usually say UK stock and delivery in 5-7 days. When the goods come they are in UK packaging, UK franking and nearly always via post office.

I'm pretty certain that the vendors combine all the orders for that day, ship as one parcel air freight (no idea what they do about customs but I never get charged duty) to a UK distribution point - many seem to be in Portsmouth(?) and then onwards via Uk second class post.

It all works fine just a bit of a niggle that they say UK stock which is a very marginal truth.

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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

Postby Andyp » 12 Sep 2016, 09:25

After what seemed an initial success the RC socket is again failing. This time even when plugged in 25m away in the garage. So I have admitted defeat and bought another RC socket. I will still use the relay setup to protect the RC socket.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

Postby Doug » 12 Sep 2016, 22:09

The power take off on my extractor has started playing up recently so I've been looking at alternative ways of switching the vac on automatically as I start a power tool, a search has come up with these http://www.toolovation.co.uk/iVAC_vacuu ... _s/153.htm don't know if it would help in your situation Andy but I thought I'd post it up just in case it was of help to you or anyone else.
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Re: Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

Postby RogerS » 13 Sep 2016, 04:37

Still got this available for sale

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