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Trouble changing table saw arbour

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Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 26 Nov 2016, 18:32

Any help would be much appreciated.

I bought my Xcalibur table saw second hand and have been very happy with my purchase. When I picked it up it had the longer of the two arbors fitted which allows the dado tack to be out on the saw. I presume the last owner left this on as it is then easy to switch between a single blade and the dado stack, and I have done the same. However, the long arbor fouls on the top of the saw if you angle the blade to 45 degrees, which unfortunately is what I now want to do. The saw came with various tools including a spanner with two lugs in it and a large diameter Allen key. The lugs on the spanner fit into the part of the saw that the arbour screws into and the large Allen key fits into the end of the arbour itself. Looking at the shorter arbour which I want to fit it looks as though the arbour screws in anti-clockwise so needs to be turned clockwise to remove it.

Try as I might I can't get the arbour to shift. With the longer arbour the Allen key can only be fitted intot he whole at the end under the table and then by rotating the arbour you can get it above the tabletop, but that means I cannot use a longer Allen key as it then can't be rotated to allow access above the table.

The only things I can think of are to spray some WD40 as close as I can get to where the arbour screws into the saw and / or to get some pipe to fit over the short Allen key to give me more leverage. But I am a bit wary of doing either as I am not exactly gifted in mechanical matters, so there may be negative consequences I can't foresee.

Am I trying to turn this off the correct way? Any other suggestions as to how I can release the arbour without risking damaging the saw?

Any help would be very much appreciated!

Terry.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby kirkpoore1 » 26 Nov 2016, 19:35

Terry:

1. Can you post some pictures to clarify?

2. WD40 is not a penetrating oil and is barely a lubricant. I suggest going to get some penetrating oil or roll your own (50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone, but you have to use it soon because the acetone will evaporate).

Now, having said that, let me see if I'm visualizing this right. I did try to find pictures, but they didn't help.

In most table saws, the arbor is a shaft which can be removed by taking off the blade on one side, the pulley off the other side, and tapping on the pulley end to drive it through the casting that holds the bearings. The bearings may or may not come out with the arbor in this process. Yours sounds more like there's a whole cylinder that threads into the casting that holds arbor, bearings and all. This replaceable assembly is removed by using the pin spanner to turn it, though I could be way off here ("The lugs on the spanner fit into the part of the saw that the arbour screws into and the large Allen key fits into the end of the arbour itself.").

The end of the arbor has a socket for an allen wrench. I would normally think that this socket and corresponding wrench would be used to hold the arbor still while you're tightening up the nut to hold the blade. Or the part that takes the pin spanner is actually a threaded on arbor flange, and you use the allen wrench and pin spanner to tighten it up after it's in place.

Anyway, there is enough variance here that either I'm completely at sea or you've got a saw unlike any I've seen before. Once again, pictures might help.

Sorry to be so confused...

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 26 Nov 2016, 23:32

Thanks for your help Kirk. I am at a disadvantage as I have ugly ever seen under the 'hood' of one table saw.

Yes, based on the shorter arbour that I want to fit the arbour is threaded and screws i to a corresponding thread in the saw. If I just turn the arbour with no spanners or anything it turns freely as if the blade were moving. The body of the saw the arbour screws into moves freely with the arbour and it is this that has the holes the lugs fit into. So I think I need to old the body of the saw still while I turn the arbour with Allen key in it.

Hopefully that makes sense, but I will try and get some pictures tomorrow.

Terry.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Rod » 27 Nov 2016, 00:13

I think Bob's got an Excalibur and he's certainly got a Dado stack - perhaps he'll be along later.

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby 9fingers » 27 Nov 2016, 09:32

Rod wrote:I think Bob's got an Excalibur and he's certainly got a Dado stack - perhaps he'll be along later.

Rod

Correct on all counts Rod. Faced with this problem I made a tool for the job. That's the advantage of being an engineer first and a wood mangler second. :lol:
Busy with other stuff at the moment but will try and take a photo later today when I'm allowed some workshop time.
Terry you would be welcome to borrow it but I would not want to be without it for too long.

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 27 Nov 2016, 12:34

9fingers wrote:
Rod wrote:I think Bob's got an Excalibur and he's certainly got a Dado stack - perhaps he'll be along later.

Rod

Correct on all counts Rod. Faced with this problem I made a tool for the job. That's the advantage of being an engineer first and a wood mangler second. :lol:
Busy with other stuff at the moment but will try and take a photo later today when I'm allowed some workshop time.
Terry you would be welcome to borrow it but I would not want to be without it for too long.

Bob


As ever Bob, very kind. If you can take a picture that would be much appreciated. I suspect my arbour is somewhat seized on as it I have never taken it off to put the shorter one on and I have no idea how long the previous owner had this one on. Kork's suggestion of penetrating oil seems a good way forward and I shall try and buy some later today.

Posted same question in the other 'other place' and Steve Maskery (who also has the same saw) at least confirmed the direction I am turning everything is correct, i.e. holding the still and pulling the Allen key in the end of the arbour forward towards the front of the saw. So at least I know I am trying to take it off and not just jamming it on ever tighter.

As a non engineering type one of my major flaws is never thinking of regular maintenance on tools, I just assume I switch them on and they will work into eternity. Something I need to remedy I think, so once I do get it off a regular removal and refitting with any appropriate lubrication may be in order.

The annoying thing is I am actually trying to make something out of wood other than sheds and agricultural stuff for the garden and this issue is now in my way.

Terry.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby 9fingers » 27 Nov 2016, 14:07

Terry, yes regular maintenance is desirable but not obsessively so. These arbours have two important design features, the thread to hold in the extension which as you know has a left hand thread and the ground taper surfaces male and female to make the extension locate concentrically. In you case this taper might just have a little rust binding the two together.
The essential maintenance is limited to a film (no more) of oil on the taper surfaces and thread of the part in use AND the one you are not using. Any traces of rust should be removes with a little wire wool just until the surfcae is smooth (not to a wallace level of polish! :lol: by which time the dimensions will be under attack).


Here is the tool I made from a piece of thick wall steel water pipe about 20mm OD in my case and a 8mm quality allen key carefully shortened to about 22mm. This should be done with a fine kerf cutting blade in an angle grinder with regular water cooling to ensure the end is not softened. The fine kerf blades (1mm thick) are important as the amount of metal turned into dust is minimised and consequently the heat produced.
I would advise everyone to have one of these blade in the workshop as they are so good at cutting hard steels with out a lot of heat.

Overall view

Image

Length only needs to be approximate roughly equal to the bit of water pipe in the scrap bin :lol:

Image

key end view

Image

hope this helps

Bob
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 27 Nov 2016, 14:08

Here is a picture of the offending item, in case that gives anyone any additional sparks of genius.

Image

You can see the holes for the lugs on the spanner and hole for the Allen key in the end of the arbour.

Terry
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 27 Nov 2016, 14:14

Posts crossed Bob, but I went ahead and posted anyway.

I have two Allen keys that came with my saw, the end on one is shorter than the other and I presume that shooter one came with the longer arbour, as it means it just clears the saw table so it can be inserted below the table and then turned so the handle end is above the table.

I am going to Wickes this afternoon for some penetrating oil so I will take the Allen key with me and see if I can find a length of suitable pipe that will simple slip over it without too much play.

Thanks for the help.

Terry.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby 9fingers » 27 Nov 2016, 14:30

Wizard9999 wrote:Posts crossed Bob, but I went ahead and posted anyway.

I have two Allen keys that came with my saw, the end on one is shorter than the other and I presume that shooter one came with the longer arbour, as it means it just clears the saw table so it can be inserted below the table and then turned so the handle end is above the table.

I am going to Wickes this afternoon for some penetrating oil so I will take the Allen key with me and see if I can find a length of suitable pipe that will simple slip over it without too much play.

Thanks for the help.

Terry.


Wickes won't have heavy water pipe and a real plumber merchant will possibly only sell in 6m lengths. Improvisation from other stuff or skips might be more fruitful. Steel conduit might be OK or the handle from a trolley jack if you have such a thing. Parts from a cheap telescopic car wheel brace maybe?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Extendable-Wh ... SwLnBX2YZu

Plus gas is probably the best penetrating fluid you can get readily. Don't be fobbed off with WD40 which is a poor penetrant. Car spares places such as Halfrauds should have it on a Sunday.

Just make sure when you insert the allen key into the arbout it goes in as far as possible. with the lever fitted there will be huge forces present and you really don't want to * up the arbour.

Good Luck
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Robert » 27 Nov 2016, 17:49

Cut off 20mm or whatever of allen key material then hammer a suitable sized nut onto one end. Then use a big spanner with your new adaptor...
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 28 Nov 2016, 10:20

Hmmm, still no movement.

Applied penetrating oil last night and tried this morning.

First I drilled out an 8mm hole in a length of dowel which was previously the rail in an old wardrobe. The trouble was that this was so thick it would not slide between the Allen key and the table so only engaged the top third of the Allen key. The dowel split as I applied a lot of pressure.

So I then tried slipping a 35cm section of metal curtain pole over the Allen key in the set up below
Image
Still no luck. As I pull on the pole the spanner is jammed again the piece of ply protecting the table. There is no sign of movement from the arbour but I am starting to flex my lever, as far as I can tell it is actually the Allen key that is starting to flex rather than the pole, but I can't be certain of that.

I have done a bit more reading online and the only three ways of dealing with this in a non-destructive way seem to be; penetrating oil, impacts and heat.

I have applied oil, but it is not easy to get oil to where to the thread is I suspect, this is the end of the short arbour I want to fit on, as per Bob's description above the thread is on a narrower part with a large shoulder.
Image
So if it is the thread that needs releasing any oil has to squeeze between arbour and the hole it goes into, then travel along the shoulder eventually making it to the thread. All this in something held horizontally so it has limited help from gravity. So I am not sure how much oil is making it where it needs to, despite two applications and applying it front and back to maximise the chances of penetration.

What I have read suggests that giving the Allen key a belt with a mallet may be beneficial as the impact may break any seal formed by any rust. In an ideal world I think the suggestion would be for the impact to be onto the end of the arbour, but I can't do it this way so I have merely hit the Allen key when it is inserted, hard enough and often enough to wreck the face of the mallet. I have resisted belting the side of the arbour as the last thing I want to do is bend it.

Heat if I understand correctly is all about expansion and contraction breaking any seal between the parts. I have not tried this and I have no idea how much heat, where I need to apply it or how hot things need to get for this to work.

I have not tried getting a nut onto the Allen key, but I struggle to see how that will be much different to the pipe slipped over the Allen key. I guess there would be no flex in the spanner handle, but the weak point then would be the nut rotating on the Allen key. Also any spanner I have will be shorter than the length of pipe so there will be less leverage. Or am I missing something here.

Having seen some of the old rusted monsters Wallace manages to get apart I can't believe this is a lost cause, so any further thoughts would be much appreciated.

Terry.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Robert » 28 Nov 2016, 11:08

I'd try hitting the key with a hammer/mallet but make sure the key stays in the socket as far as it can go. maybe a wood wedge against the bend in the key. The last thing you want is the key half in the socket and key or socket getting burred over as it slips out.

An 8mm allen key would take you standing on the end without bending (unless it was a taiwan special) so it is unlikely to be bending with your thin looking tube lever.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 28 Nov 2016, 14:15

Must be the tube bending then. I'm just getting the sense that the thing is seized in there and if I could put ever more load on it ultimately something would break before the thread moved - worst case scenario being the arbour shearing off at the shoulder.

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby the bear » 28 Nov 2016, 18:13

Terry you have identified the main ways to try and release this.
I have a similar saw and personally I would be tempted to take the rails and wings off and remove the top (should be held on with 4 bolts one each corner.) Obviously you wouldn't want to do this normally but you are beyond that. At least taking the top off you can see what you're doing, not trying to work through a small hole that has already caused you problems, you can potentially swing a mallet properly and see what you are doing to try a bit of gentle heat.
As an aside is there any sign of rust anywhere else, has it been abused or badly stored?
Good luck
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Andyp » 28 Nov 2016, 18:27

At what point to you remove the bit that the arbour is attached to, the motor I presume. Get it on the bench and have a good view of what is going on. Probably after you have removed the tables/wings I guess.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 28 Nov 2016, 22:33

the bear wrote:As an aside is there any sign of rust anywhere else, has it been abused or badly stored?


I don't think it was abused and / or not looked after, no signs of rust really anywhere else, table for instance was in very good condition when I picked it up. The guy I bought it off restores and sells old tools to generate retirement income and this saw was in his garage with his inventory of tools, so I don't think he would have wanted them to rust so the saw would have been in a good physical environment. I suspect that the long arbour had been left on for a long time before I picked up the saw and I have not taken it off either. T be honest n less you want to do 45 degree cuts there is no point taking it off as having it on makes swapping back and forth from single blade to dado a lot quicker. Only reason I went to remove it was I wanted to cut some 45 degree angles for a mitred box.

If I do take the table off and go for using heat, any tips on what to use to heat it up, what to heat and using what sort of heat source?

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby 9fingers » 28 Nov 2016, 22:53

I wonder about the wisdom of taking the top off. Yes you get good access but you will lose the use of the table as the stop for the spindle spanner.
I think I might ensure use of a top quality allen key and some better tube to take out the flexure.
My hunch is that the taper will be where it is sticking rather than the thread but that is only a hunch.
Getting some heat on it has got to be worth a try but I don't know what sources you have got. Ideally you want a short sharp thermal shock rather than pour in lost of heat and end up wrecking bearing seals.

Really not sure what the best approach would be with your facilities to be honest.

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Rod » 28 Nov 2016, 23:15

A small propane torch, with the disposable canisters, would probably be the cheapest solution.
Are those parts still available or could you have one fabricated?
If so, you could try to saw it off!
My Deft, which is similar to the Laguna, takes a Dado stack but I don't think it came with different bolts?
It does tilt to 45 though - I must have a look inside.

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Robert » 28 Nov 2016, 23:56

If it were mine I'd just belt the Allen key with a club hammer... but as it isn't I'll leave you to it.
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Wizard9999 » 29 Nov 2016, 08:45

9fingers wrote:I wonder about the wisdom of taking the top off. Yes you get good access but you will lose the use of the table as the stop for the spindle spanner.
I think I might ensure use of a top quality allen key and some better tube to take out the flexure.
My hunch is that the taper will be where it is sticking rather than the thread but that is only a hunch.
Getting some heat on it has got to be worth a try but I don't know what sources you have got. Ideally you want a short sharp thermal shock rather than pour in lost of heat and end up wrecking bearing seals.

Really not sure what the best approach would be with your facilities to be honest.

Bob


Ignoring my facilities Bob, what would you use to give it a "thermal shock"?

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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby 9fingers » 29 Nov 2016, 08:54

Oxy acetylene for intense localised heat on the flange near the taper but I've only got a propane torch so I'd probably use that.

Good luck
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Andyp » 29 Nov 2016, 10:22

Terry, have a Google or Youtube search on using wax to free rusted nuts. Not sure if it will work for you but it does seem less aggressive than some methods.

Heat the area around the bolt with a propane torch, and touch a candle to the threads. The wax will be sucked into the opening around the threads, and the bolt can be removed easily. The heating and candle application may have to be repeated a couple times. This works on the same principle as "sweat-soldering" copper pipes, and will work where penetrating oil will not. (Always use care when and where you apply heat)
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby Tusses » 29 Nov 2016, 12:40

I haven't read the whole thread .. oh .. lol "thread" ! .. but are you trying to turn the right way ? if it's a left hand thread, due to the motor spin direction, then you need to turn the other way !

just putting this out there, in case no one has mentioned it :-)
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Re: Trouble changing table saw arbour

Postby 9fingers » 29 Nov 2016, 12:42

Tusses wrote:I haven't read the whole thread .. oh .. lol "thread" ! .. but are you trying to turn the right way ? if it's a left hand thread, due to the motor spin direction, then you need to turn the other way !

just putting this out there, in case no one has mentioned it :-)


Yes we are well passed this potential hurdle :lol:

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