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'Entry level' dust extraction

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'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Stoatally » 30 Mar 2017, 09:26

Morning

I'm looking to get a dust extraction set up. I have a lathe, small table saw, mitre saw and other small power tools.

I understand that I really need a chip extractor but also something to then filter the air.

I've been looking at the entry level Record Power chip extractors - CX2000, CX2500 and so on, which have the dust bag, but the CX2500 also has a fine filter accessory that I think filters down to 0.5micron. There are other variants - SIP, Scheppach HA1600 etc. All these with the added filter (where available) add up to about £250 new. The alternative would be a couple of individual smaller units like Record Power DX1000?

There's also something like the Triton dust collector (which I guess is like a cyclone?) attached to my small titan hoover?

Any other suggestions? I keep looking on eBay as well but I'm not sure what I need really
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Andyp » 30 Mar 2017, 10:49

A bit of a minefield this as there are many options and deciding factors.
I do not regret going for the Camvac with twin motors 100mm inlet. It is high pressure low volume and very noisy but I have the luxury of an install outside and above the workshop. Pipes can be added to the exhaust ports to reduce the noise greatly.

A cyclone or some sort of drop box will help but can be added later as can fixed ducting.

Alternatively low pressure high volume systems have benefits but I will leave that for others as I have never used one.
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Stoatally » 30 Mar 2017, 11:47

I can probably stretch to £250 before the wife explodes and I only have 1 side of a slightly bigger than single garage. Can't do anything outside as the garage is built into the back garden.
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby 9fingers » 30 Mar 2017, 13:13

For an internal extractor to long term use I would stay away from brush motor powered devices.
These are very noisy and in most cases not rated for continuous use such as a long session on the lathe.

If you have good ceiling eight such as in a pitched roof space, you can locate the motor/blower and air filter up above head height. The floor space occupied can be quite small with a collection bin on the floor and a separator (cyclone) vertically above.
I have quite a powerful system (3hp) but the space occupied is possibly about only 450mm diameter floor to ceiling.
You can save a lot on cost by buying used components such as a blower on ebay, scavenging a collection drum or ebay again and possibly building your own cyclone, lots of ideas on Youtube.
Buying bits at a time might keep the project out of the sights of local management too!

Good Luck
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby MikeJhn » 31 Mar 2017, 05:15

The purpose of any dust/chip collection is to reduce our exposure to harmful particles in some way, IMO cyclones are not the panacea of dust collection they at first seem to be, they do nothing more than allow a longer period between cleaning of the filters in your extraction system, they in fact increase your exposure to dust when emptying as they can not be used with a collection bag without some kind of cage that has to be removed through the dust to empty the container, (negative pressure inside the container) dust exposure is obviously directly proportional to the efficiency of the filter, if your dust or chip extractor discharges straight into a filter bag you have effectively reduced your exposure when emptying compared to tipping your arisings into a bag from the container below a cyclone which defeats the object of less exposure.

HPLV (vacuum cleaners) that use internal filter bags at least contain the dust for disposal, but are only as efficient as the porous nature of the bag, the discharge air will still contain any dust that escapes through the bags pores , these generally are used as extractors for small hand tools which create a lot of dust, sanders and the like, the best of these will have the facility to pipe the discharge air to convenient point outside the workshop, this also reduce's the noise of the brushed motor or motors.

LPHV (chip extractors) fitted with a large paper filter are more efficient at collecting larger particles from a Lathe, table saw and especially a planer thicknesser and usually have a large plastic collection bag hung below them with the filter above, good paper filters (much better than the blow up bags) have a paddle which turns inside to flick dust off the folded paper to allow any accumulated dust to fall into the collection bag below, this still has to be removed for disposal, but if disposed of prior to becoming full the neck of the bag can be closed easier than if left until the bag is bulging, wasteful on bags, but better for your lungs. When looking at LPHV extractors compare M3/Hr figures it is far better to overwhelm your requirements rather than just meet them.

The science of all this can be seen here: http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/a-gu ... 02025.html not sure if the link will work, but its a very good explanation of how both systems operate, with some science thrown in.

Mike
Last edited by MikeJhn on 31 Mar 2017, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Andyp » 31 Mar 2017, 06:22

:text-goodpost:
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby RogerS » 31 Mar 2017, 07:27

You only need a chip extractor if you are using something like a planer/thicknesser or spindle moulder although I accept that a lathe also produces chips (but the amount is relatively low compared to a P/T or S/M going full bore.

Mitres saws and table saws produce primarily dust. I don't agree with the statement that chip extractors are needed for a table saw. The Camvac/cyclone set-up works pretty well provided that you take precautions such as a good face mask when emptying it (ideally outside). Some people will extract their dust to an outside unit but in winter this has the disadvantage of sucking out hot air and warmth.

When I started out woodworking I used a simple vacuum cleaner but that soon got filled up with chip pings from the P/T (which you don't have). I then migrated to a small cyclone unit and vacuum cleaner but then my machines increased in size, volume of chips created etc as I was then making a lot of stuff. I migrated to the Axminster AD2200 (IIRC) chip extractor with a fine dust filter but then had the problem of getting rid of the stuff. Since the chip extractor was also sucking up the dust from the table and mitre saws, there was too much dust mixed in with the chips for the local stables to take.

So I rethought what was going on...hence my opening comment. The chip extractor takes chips from my P/T and S/M. The table saw, mitre saw go into the Camvac.

I also have two of the recirculating filter units (one home-brewed the other a Jet 1000) but didn't always switch them on. :oops:
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Phil » 31 Mar 2017, 07:48

MikeJhn wrote:The purpose of any dust/chip collection is to reduce our exposure to harmful particles in some way, IMO cyclones are not the panacea of dust collection they at first seem to be, they do nothing more than allow a longer period between cleaning of the filters in your extraction system, they in fact increase your exposure to dust when emptying as they can not be used with a collection bag without some kind of cage that has to be removed through the dust to empty the container, (negative pressure inside the container) dust exposure is obviously directly proportional to the efficiency of the filter, if your dust or chip extractor discharges straight into a filter bag you have effectively reduced your exposure when emptying compared to tipping your arisings into a bag from the container below a cyclone which defeats the object of less exposure.

HPLV (vacuum cleaners) that use internal filter bags at least contain the dust for disposal, but are only as efficient as the porous nature of the bag, the discharge air will still contain any dust that escapes through the bags pores , these generally are used as extractors for small hand tools which create a lot of dust, sanders and the like, the best of these will have the facility to pipe the discharge air to convenient point outside the workshop, this also reduce's the noise of the brushed motor or motors.

LPHV (chip extractors) fitted with a large paper filter are more efficient at collecting larger particles from a Lathe, table saw and especially a planer thicknesser and usually have a large plastic collection bag hung below them with the filter above, good paper filters (much better than the blow up bags) have a paddle which turns inside to flick dust off the folded paper to allow any accumulated dust to fall into the collection bag below, this still has to be removed for disposal, but if disposed of prior to becoming full the neck of the bag can be closed easier than if left until the bag is bulging, wasteful on bags, but better for your lungs. When looking at LPHV extractors compare M3/Hr figures it is far better to overwhelm your requirements rather than just meet them.

The science of all this can be seen here: http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/a-gu ... 02025.html not sure if the link will work, but its a very good explanation of how both systems work.

Mike




Thanks for the information and the link.



RogerS wrote:I also have two of the recirculating filter units (one home-brewed the other a Jet 1000) but didn't always switch them on. :oops:



I would think everybody has done that sometime or other, especially when "just doing something quick" :oops:


{Edit}

Question - how do I print a thread or download?
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Pinch » 31 Mar 2017, 07:56

I've recently made a lot of dust extraction improvements in my shop including the purchase of the Record Camvac with the 0.5 micron filter system. I'm preparing another video ("Oh no!" I hear you say :lol: ) showing all of my dust extractors, which you might find interesting. I'll do it anyway. 8-)
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby 9fingers » 31 Mar 2017, 07:57

Phil. Try the print button at the top of the thread on the right

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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Phil » 31 Mar 2017, 08:02

9fingers wrote:Phil. Try the print button at the top of the thread on the right

Bob


Thanks Bob, I have used the print here once long time ago, but forgot. :oops:

I wanted to print the UKW thread and ended up with the Firefox print which is not that great.


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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Stoatally » 31 Mar 2017, 08:20

I don't have a P/T at the moment, but I'm always looking to expand, and I was also thinking that is it not better to get a better spec now that will cope with future expansion than just meet my requirements now and have to get new stuff in the future?
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby TrimTheKing » 31 Mar 2017, 09:09

Stoatally wrote:I don't have a P/T at the moment, but I'm always looking to expand, and I was also thinking that is it not better to get a better spec now that will cope with future expansion than just meet my requirements now and have to get new stuff in the future?


That's mine and many others philosophy, if you have the money or are prepared to save then money, then buy once and buy right.

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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby 9fingers » 31 Mar 2017, 09:26

TrimTheKing wrote:
Stoatally wrote:I don't have a P/T at the moment, but I'm always looking to expand, and I was also thinking that is it not better to get a better spec now that will cope with future expansion than just meet my requirements now and have to get new stuff in the future?


That's mine and many others philosophy, if you have the money or are prepared to save then money, then buy once and buy right.

Cheers
Mark


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I have a slight variant on that. Try and get it right first time with an improvised solution but if that needs changes, use the experience gained to inform your future modification/purchase.

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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby TrimTheKing » 31 Mar 2017, 09:27

I was talking specifically about tool/machine purchases Bob, but agree with you on other solutions.

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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby 9fingers » 31 Mar 2017, 09:38

TrimTheKing wrote:I was talking specifically about tool/machine purchases Bob, but agree with you on other solutions.

Cheers
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I was more thinking of the dust collection but I have tended to buy second hand machinery when starting out on a hobby/interest and use that to a decide if I want to pursue the interest and if so, be selective about a new purchase. In either case the used machine can often be sold on at or around the purchase price.

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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby MikeJhn » 31 Mar 2017, 10:57

I started with a twin motor Numatic (2400watt) this would not clear my PT and left Chipping's on the the timber through the thicknesser that marked the surface of the workpiece, since getting a 2000M3/HR chip extractor my workshop has never been so dust free, the PT now completely empties, the table saw no longer shoots dust around from the crown guard, and the router built in box is also empty at the end of a routing session, the fence guard on the router table is fascinating to watch as the dust/chips swirl around and disappear down into the connected extract, the Numatic is now relegated to sanding and floor cleaning duties.

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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Rod » 31 Mar 2017, 11:00

Rutlands are selling a bit of kit for £119
No idea if it's any good

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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby DaveL » 31 Mar 2017, 12:37

Rod wrote:Rutlands are selling a bit of kit for £119
No idea if it's any good

Rod

I think that looks a bit under powered, only has a 550watt motor.
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Pinch » 31 Mar 2017, 19:43

Matt, you might find my new thread useful for some of your queries. 8-)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2562
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Stoatally » 31 Mar 2017, 21:41

Pinch wrote:Matt, you might find my new thread useful for some of your queries. 8-)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2562


Nice video :-)
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Pinch » 02 Apr 2017, 09:09

Cheers Matt, glad you like and hope it has given you a couple of ideas. 8-)
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Woodbloke » 04 Apr 2017, 11:48

A tricky area to cover, but without wishing to push any of our products, I've recently completed a four part series on dust extraction for the hobby workshop on The Knowledge page of the website. It's a very complex issue and one that needs to be taken seriously. Protecting ourselves from sharp, spiny bits of rotating steel is a walk in the park compared to the menace of dust. For info see the series of articles here:

http://knowledge.axminster.co.uk/?s=dust+extaction - Rob
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Woodbloke » 04 Apr 2017, 12:18

Pinch wrote:I've recently made a lot of dust extraction improvements in my shop including the purchase of the Record Camvac with the 0.5 micron filter system. I'm preparing another video ("Oh no!" I hear you say :lol: ) showing all of my dust extractors, which you might find interesting. I'll do it anyway. 8-)

A good machine (I have one) but the 'capture rate' has never been published and I have it on very good authority that it's almost impossible to find out what it is - Rob
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Re: 'Entry level' dust extraction

Postby Stoatally » 04 Apr 2017, 18:48

I got a bit carried away over the weekend and bought one of the Rutlands chip and dust collector.

I did find and read the axminster guides to dust extraction and read a few other bits and pieces. It seems that one of the chip/dust collectors with a fine dust filter cartridge fitted is about as good an overall compromise as you can get.

Now I just need to to work out how to get it connected to everything and what to use around the lathe. I also need to find a cartridge filter that fits on a 310mm mount. I think the Record CX2500 filter is for 320 so should go on alright.
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