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Extraction location

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Extraction location

Postby Wizard9999 » 14 Aug 2014, 20:32

As part of the planning for my workshop I want to have decent extraction, but space is limited. So as my workshop is going to be only about 1.2m from the back of my garage, where space is not such an issue. I am therefore wondering about locating the extractor in the garage and then running a pipe from garage to workshop, just below ceiling height. I would then running pipes to the various points where I think I will need to connect to the system or extraction.

Has anyone used / seen this approach in practice? Any thoughts as to whether it is a good or bad idea? And if it is not a non-starter any suggestions of a sensible extractor at a reasonable cost that will be be man enough for this?

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Re: Extraction location

Postby DaveL » 14 Aug 2014, 21:09

The idea should be workable, you will need smooth bore pipe, don't use flexible everywhere the rough surface on the inside will slow the air flow and can cause the shavings/dust to be left in the pipe. I would suggest you use a cyclone with output filters. If you just use the cloth filter bags, then everything in the garage will end up with a covering of dust as they do not stop the very fine dust, it just leaks out though the weave of the cloth.
Do you plan to have any heating in your shop? Having the dust extractor in the garage will rapidly move all of your warm air into the garage, not ideal.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby 9fingers » 14 Aug 2014, 21:13

The real question is do you plan to heat the workshop at anytime. If so the extraction system (is it is any good) will need to shift a hell of a lot of air from the inside of the workshop to the outside AND you will have to allow a similar amount of cold outside air in to compensate.

So your extractor could be outside but it must return filtered, warm air back into the workshop so you can keep the door shut and your expensive heat in.

You could always mount the blower and filters up in the roof space and just have the collection bin inside or outside the workshop.

Here is a video of my set up in the very early days of the workshop being set up.

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Re: Extraction location

Postby DaveL » 14 Aug 2014, 22:42

I have my filters in the roof space as it seemed like a good idea at the time. I am now planing to rebuild the filter mounts to allow them to hang down from the rafters, the filters do need to be cleaned, not very often but with them in the roof space its a major problem. If you have lots of space in the roof go for it.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby kirkpoore1 » 15 Aug 2014, 17:56

You could conceivably deal with the heat loss issue by boxing in the filter or bag and having a large return pipe go back to the shop from the garage. You want it large so that it doesn't cause a back pressure problem. By "large" I mean several times the cross-section of your incoming pipe.

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Re: Extraction location

Postby Wizard9999 » 15 Aug 2014, 21:51

Very helpful, heat loss had not even crossed my mind, i was thinking of space. Clearly i need to think this through a little more. Sadly roof space is a non-option as i need to stay below 2.5m high, so head room is already going to be a potential issue.

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Re: Extraction location

Postby Andyp » 18 Aug 2014, 20:32

Terry, I've seen images of workshops where the extractor ti housed outside the workshop in a small cupboard.

I bought a Camvac while I was in the UK at the weekend and hope to do something similar to David's set up. But it will be September before I get started. I'll certainly be posting progress details here.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby tracerman » 13 Sep 2014, 16:55

Terry , this is a wonderful , frustrating and absorbing subject . Take heed of what Dave , Bob and Kirk are saying . I wish I had a pound for every hour I have spent , distracting myself from the job in hand , to try some new fangled improvement to the extraction system , or collecting the dust from saws , routers or planer . Back in 1986 , I had a medium sized workshop at Stanbridge Earls( Nr Romsey) in which I was making toys , dollshouses , and furniture . I bought a new Startrite Cyclair 75 dust extractor , which stood in a corner , connected (6" reduced to 4") to a system of 4" inch orange drainage fittings and tubing . I was told it looked like the Pompidou Centre . The cloth bag on the extractor was not enclosed , so that each morning on opening up , every horizontal surface was coated with FINE dust . My point here is that the most dangerous particles ( small enough to remain in suspension) were passing through the bag . These are the particles most likely to eventually kill you . And yes you will also suck out your heat if you put the machine outside . I still have the Startrite at the back of my garage , housed in a stirling-board shed 4' x 4' x 8' high , the tubing passes out through a small window ( glass replaced by ply) and across into the shed . There is a fine gauze filter where the air escapes into the garden . This works well , but is a misery in Winter as I lose any heat . As the shed is in imminent danger of collapse ( due to neglect) I may have to move the extractor inside . Bob may remember my postings on the old woodhaven 1 , about a plywood cabinet with multiple layered sections inside the "door" to slow down the escaping dust so that it comes to rest inside the door sections...(?) still in theoretical stage at present .
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Re: Extraction location

Postby RogerS » 13 Sep 2014, 18:21

One item that no-one has mentioned either here or over on Mike G's workshop build is the benefit of also using something like the Microclene or Jet Air Filtration system.

Image

I have two - a homemade one and also a large Jet that I bought on reduction. If you leave them on for a couple of hours after you've finished work then they do go someway to removing fine dust from the air. I bought the Jet specifically to go over/near my finishing bench as sanding mahogany created huge amounts of dust - even though I was using the Mirka which has very good built-in dust extraction.

I have to confess that my workshop is disgustingly (a) untidy and (b) covered in dust everywhere.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby tracerman » 14 Sep 2014, 10:59

Regarding Filters - as I havn't given these matters a great deal of thought lately , perhaps somebody could guide me - instead of relying on the cloth bag on the top of my Startrite Cyclair 75 , is there a drum-type filter which could be plonked on the top , replacing the cloth bag ? . If this were the case , I could consider bringing the beast back inside the workshop/garage . Just wondering ......
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Re: Extraction location

Postby DaveL » 14 Sep 2014, 13:19

I have a home made cyclone with a pair of large pleated filters, sourced from ebay . They catch the very fine dust that makes it though the cyclone. I can look out the seller if your interested.
They do need to be cleaned, infrequently, this at the moment is a big hassle as I thought it would be a good idea to put then up in the roof space, it gets them out of the at but its very hard to clean them. The next major shop update will be to respite them so they hang down between the rafters to allow the cleaning to be a quick job.

I also have a home made air filter, I bought a set of replacement filters from Axmister for their shop filter, I made a box from bits of thin ply/hardboard and battens I had. Its fitted with a fan that was use to cool equipment in a 19" rack. It is quite surprising how much it collects.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby RogerS » 14 Sep 2014, 14:16

tracerman wrote:Regarding Filters - as I havn't given these matters a great deal of thought lately , perhaps somebody could guide me - instead of relying on the cloth bag on the top of my Startrite Cyclair 75 , is there a drum-type filter which could be plonked on the top , replacing the cloth bag ? . If this were the case , I could consider bringing the beast back inside the workshop/garage . Just wondering ......


You could do what I did to my Axi (which looks very similar in layout to yours).

Image

The filter comes from RB Industrial. DONALDSON P18116, TORIT BPP22269 Equiv CARTRIDGE FILTER

There is a top plate made from MDF that sits on a seal and held in place with angle/nuts and bolts. Hole in the middle to which the filter is fixed with silicon. YMMD.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby tracerman » 14 Sep 2014, 17:38

RogerS - thanks . since my last post I found numerous Utube stuff about these filters . Have you wrapped something protective around the outside of the filter , or is that as it comes ? . I was wondering about putting a drum or something ( topless) to protect it from accidental damage . Anyway thanks for the post .

Davel - thanks for your input.

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Re: Extraction location

Postby RogerS » 14 Sep 2014, 18:25

tracerman wrote:RogerS - thanks . since my last post I found numerous Utube stuff about these filters . Have you wrapped something protective around the outside of the filter , or is that as it comes ? . I was wondering about putting a drum or something ( topless) to protect it from accidental damage . Anyway thanks for the post

Steve


That is as it comes, Steve. I perdiodically whack it to try and dislodge some of the dust that has accumulated in it and so give it a bit of a longer life.

I do need to measure its effectiveness soon. As the dust inside eventually builds up, it 'blinds' and will reduce the flowrate. The last one I took out, I weighed it and there was 4.5kg of dust inside it.

I have a manometer and will, if I remember, measure the pressure drop across the filter. Ideally it should be zero but I bet it won't be.

But if it filters out the fine stuff then good.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby DaveL » 14 Sep 2014, 19:25

One way of cleaning, with the unit off is to blow back though it with an air line, not up too close or it will damage the filter. I plan to have a box on the bottom of the filters that will collect the dust when the filter is cleaned like that. A removable hatch to allow the dust to be bagged up will be on one side of the box.
I have seen a set up with the bottom box having a blast gate to allow the air to pass back though the cyclone, I am not sure that solution will work, if the dust was too fine for the cyclone to drop it the first time round, why would it get it on the secondly?
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Re: Extraction location

Postby 9fingers » 14 Sep 2014, 19:33

Some of the commercial extractors have a device to rattle the filter for a short while once it has been switched off and the debris falls into the collection bag. No good for me as my filters are horizontal but could be an interesting design project with a motor with an eccentric weight - like a huge vibrator to mount on top of the filter to shake it.

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Re: Extraction location

Postby DaveL » 14 Sep 2014, 20:40

Bob,
Another thing that keeps going round in my head is a warning system to let me know when the dust bin is almost full. I have googled this and a number of ideas came up, the one I am currently thinking about is a paddle that rotates in the bin. When the level gets up to it, the drive slips, this is detected and sound an alarm. Have you got anything on your system to warn of a full bin?
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Re: Extraction location

Postby 9fingers » 14 Sep 2014, 20:53

DaveL wrote:Bob,
Another thing that keeps going round in my head is a warning system to let me know when the dust bin is almost full. I have googled this and a number of ideas came up, the one I am currently thinking about is a paddle that rotates in the bin. When the level gets up to it, the drive slips, this is detected and sound an alarm. Have you got anything on your system to warn of a full bin?


No I haven't and it is a pita when it overflows and fills the roof filter with chips grrrrr!

one method is a low power dc motor turning a blade. monitoring the increased voltage drop in a series resistor when the motor stalls. Resistor protects the motor under stall conditions. Something like a kiddies toy propeller motor will do. Flea power is plenty.

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Re: Extraction location

Postby TheTiddles » 14 Sep 2014, 21:08

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Last edited by TheTiddles on 02 Nov 2014, 14:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby kirkpoore1 » 15 Sep 2014, 00:39

I have a detector made by a guy named Robert Payne of McRabbet Woodworks in North Carolina. It's a low voltage optical system based on a garage door sensor. Assuming you have a flexible clear plastic pipe that feeds into your bin, the two parts of the sensor shine through the pipe and when the infrared light is blocked, the warning goes off. It has a strobe light and an optional noise alarm. Here is a review:

http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullent ... php?t=1272
There are pictures, but you have to sign up to the site to see them. Clearvue sells them here:
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/support ... ensor.html

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Re: Extraction location

Postby tracerman » 15 Sep 2014, 09:33

Terry , d'ya see what I meant by a wonderful absorbing and frustrating subject ? You asked about having the extractor in your garage , and here we are , discussing infra-red electronic gizmo's for sawdust blockages and everything in between. Great isn't it ... and I'm still pondering whether my collapsing shed will last through the winter . What a great forum .

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Re: Extraction location

Postby Wizard9999 » 15 Sep 2014, 09:43

tracerman wrote:Terry , d'ya see what I meant by a wonderful absorbing and frustrating subject ? You asked about having the extractor in your garage , and here we are , discussing infra-red electronic gizmo's for sawdust blockages and everything in between. Great isn't it ... and I'm still pondering whether my collapsing shed will last through the winter . What a great forum .


:text-+1:

All I was trying to do was save a few precious cm2 of floor space. I'm rapidly finding out that I don't even know enough about most of these topics to even know what questions I should be asking.

That said, what I am taking out of this so far is that the benefit of remote location is not just space, but potentially noise (though views on that vary). Against that I have to balance potential heat loss issues (espcially in colder months), but that may be resolved with some sort of 'return pipe' but that this would need to be a significantly greater dimension than the pipe taking dust out. Of course if it returns warm air I guess the noise would be coming back the same way.

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Re: Extraction location

Postby tracerman » 15 Sep 2014, 09:53

Terry - be proud , you've joined the club .

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Re: Extraction location

Postby RogerS » 15 Sep 2014, 10:48

tracerman wrote:...... and I'm still pondering whether my collapsing shed will last through the winter . What a great forum .

Steve


Well, make sure you don't accelerate it's demise by having too much suck on your externally mounted extractor :lol:

I remember my first mini-cyclone project. I built a box for the ClearVue cyclone to sit on top of and thought it would be a great idea to make the face of the box out of some clear polycarbonate so I could see when it was full. The very first time I powered up my vacuum, I watched the polycarbonate get pulled inwards until with an almighty bang, it shattered. That was design fault No 1. Design fault No. 2 was making the box too large so that it wouldn't fit into a bin liner for emptying.
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Re: Extraction location

Postby TrimTheKing » 15 Sep 2014, 11:28

That's why I used the Cyclone Central pressure valve as I exploded my first cyclone that same way ! :shock:

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