It is currently 03 Mar 2024, 21:25

Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Here's the place to talk about all your table saws, bandsaws, routers and dust extractors. In fact anything that makes noise and uses electrickery.

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 17 Mar 2023, 21:21

Appologies for the lack of progressiveness regarding an update, I'll edit this later to include pics and likely explain things better whilst I'm at that.

Time for the whatever else part it seems, something you folks might have come across before.

Eventually found a suitable length of timber and planed up accurately, checking clearance (no less than 28mm in my case, this piece is 40mm, which clears the waist section of the chassis,
as the smallest change in north/south will effect this, regardless of upper wheel adjustments.
SAM_7222.JPG
(301.02 KiB)


Changed to the use of a shortened papermate biro, as pencils were breaking,
and was cause of much speculation regarding my technique..................
SAM_7225.JPG
(347.87 KiB)



This now works really well, and is clearly the way to do things, only an extra layer of ink friendly
masking tape necessary, and removal/thorough cleaning of the cellotape from my ali beam.
Infact it's working so well, that it's highlighted the whatever else :eusa-violin:
SAM_7208.JPG
(282.4 KiB)


Not mapped out my wheels yet, but the top one seems to have a problem.

I'm hoping that orientating the possibly bent shaft say 90 degrees, or 180 deg to that might fix things,
but @30mm diameter, I think that's wishful thinking.

Still, I'll be spending a day on all that for the possibility of it being the fix.
Suppose I should hope it be a more involved endeavour than that really.

I reckon you folks might be fairly confident in my setup regarding the rudimentary elements,
so won't need explain elimination of other factors.

What's happening here is
I'm getting two differing lines upon location of wheel, i.e 9 and 3 o'clock.
Seems to be about 5 [ sorry about that b]3[/b]mm(ish) discrepancy between registration of beam on either side of the wheel.
These lines are parallel with each other, which is what has me confused,
should they not meet somewhere in the middle?
Checked again and I couldn't find a spot on the wheel where it might occur.
This is practically un-noticable by eye spinning the wheel, nor with say something rigid like
a block placed against by hand, and as mentioned, not clear when tires dressed either.

As said I've not mapped out anything, just used two points for reference so far,
so perhaps I might find that I can get lines to be anything but parallel,
Since I've already done this test, a rolls worth of times worth of tape, without anything strange like that happening, and not been picking a spot for registration,
I'm fairly sure that's not going to be the case.

Still have to get back to some other stuff on the machine too,
as it needs be documented, so will be interesting to note of improvements,
and whether this variance actually turns out to be problematic under dynamic tests.

Rightly or wrongly I chose what appeared to seemingly be the least discrepancy without going bananas, which turned to be 1.30 on the wheel.

Grinding near two mm from the shim, messy business, that's what I get for joining the dots :lol:
but happy bout that as it likely amounts to a fair bit of tilt factor.
This top line was drawn with the beam on that single position of the wheel, with only a wee bit of rotating it necessary.
I didn't do this with the bottom one, just butted against both sides of the wheel and traversed across the timber.
SAM_7231.JPG
(275.17 KiB)

SAM_7234.JPG
(290.68 KiB)

SAM_7239.JPG
(282.96 KiB)



Also to further delve down some thoughts I've had of the importance of the edge strictly regarding flat tires
in which I was thinking tire damage was the objective to be overcame,
but certainly not to deal with a possibly warped or badly machined wheel.

I just can't get my head around the variance, and why that isn't noticeable without the use of the beam, or say with some other method like Trevanion mentioned.

I do hope the parallel lines doesn't translate to the same amount of rubber which might need be addressed, or both rubber and cast iron :cry:
and why didn't it become noticeable whilst dressing the edge of the tire?
As I may have mentioned I was intending to re-visit the top wheel, as the little I did
seemed to do nothing under dynamic tests (Kelly Mehler's term for under power)
Screenshot from SAM_6242.MP4 - 1.png
(704.13 KiB)


Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 18 Mar 2023, 11:49

I'm thinking of asking my query on OWWM aswell, as I seen at least one wobbly looking welded wheel before which absolutely needed sorting, as that was without seeing it move!

Though I'm guessing seemingly most, if not all of those folks are freehand crowner types...
so I doubt I'd get the answer what would yield the results I'm after.

Perhaps better to post on the Felder owners group, as most flat tired bandsaw users beyond the Creekers might be found there.

Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

oRe: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 25 Mar 2023, 16:40

Not much to report yet, only got round to inspecting some other stuff, like mapping out the bottom wheel.
Seems from what I've discovered, I've got some thinking to do.

I can see now why I got such misreadings before.
Might have jumped the gun a little with my shim, small beans though.
Took off near 2mm so far.
SAM_7245.JPG
(315.53 KiB)


Changed tack a little with the use of the 40mm thick plank,
Finding it's less effort when the plank is butted against the chassis
SAM_7267.JPG
(283.33 KiB)


which I needed to trim it a little, so it would fit vertically on the RHS of the upper wheel,
so, a little too short now for checking the motor alignment with, small beans.
SAM_7271.JPG
(300.82 KiB)


Rotated the shaft 180 degrees, no change there, speculation eliminated on that part.
Noted the plastic spacer I made, isn't as tight as it once was though.
SAM_7262.JPG
(315.5 KiB)


Here's the important bit,
So with a 3mm+ of a variance when beam checked on the left hand side,
(which is totally consistent BTW)
I was expecting to find the same thing with the RHS.

Not so, the line is further back, by about the same amount as the wheel variance.
Now you might get the idea of why my readings were so,
should you imagine registering the beam on the high spot of the wheel, when placed at the RHS,
and not rotating it to check the LHS, the lines would be pretty close,
and combined with the pencil being less forgiving, cost me a lot of tape.

Both these lines were drawn from the high spot, but from either side of the machine.

SAM_7259.JPG
(252.71 KiB)


So will be doing a bit more mucking about first, those lines are near parallel to mess about a bit more, will see what the line looks like whilst at the lowest point on the wheel,
It might be the best location to reference off,
and I can test lower wheel alignment on all two or three lines, thinking the likelyhood is
that the two lines would probably be spot on, or very very close,
enough to test, and see how the upper wheel might fair out.

In all likelyhood, I'll be inspecting the bore, but not before everything else.
Seems it might be a tricky one to solve, when I get around to that.
Not holding my breath on being able to be able to spot something obvious.

Cheerio for now
Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 27 Mar 2023, 08:29

I've done some more testing since, this might be fun. :ugeek:
Mapped out and checked the lower wheel, and found it to be spot on,
no change to the line regardless of where the plank was located, which was pleasing to see.
SAM_7276.JPG
(319.5 KiB)


Took some shots of the Axi blade I'm using, though don't think I've ever got a problematic blade before.
Took a bit of fussing to rig up a makeshift table, and it wasn't touched for the photos.
Now I'm not sure how good the blued blade is, on this old carpenters square, if regarding it is as an inspection tool, but good enough for blades I reckon.
The camera picks up everything, so a more honest picture, more like what the naked eye sees below,
SAM_7291.JPG
(266.61 KiB)


An adequate blade for testing it seems
SAM_7285.JPG
(166.58 KiB)


Even though I've mapped the high spots on the upper wheel, I decided to tram the edge,
just to see if something apparent might show up, perhaps a bit later on.
Whilst pondering about inspecting this wheel off the machine, I reckon this might be of use to know.
No correlation was found between the method to find the high spot earlier, which I was expecting.
Little bit of contact @ 11:49 until 12:20...and a louder scrape @ 2:48 to 3:25
I didn't seek to use a feeler to find the lowest point, but can do again if necessary.
I'm thinking it's not such an accurate way of finding this out, but it was at least consistent.
SAM_7293.JPG
(333.97 KiB)


So decided to delve into inspection of the top wheel again.
Things still looking alright regarding my spacer, as the bearing is still proud enabling the wheel retaining washer to capture it
SAM_7297.JPG
(308.44 KiB)


The washer could do with swapping around, but that can wait for a bit yet,
as it might likely be problematic with the plumbob when doing further wheel depth tests later on.
SAM_7303.JPG
(324.85 KiB)


I crossed out a lot of stuff on the list of variable other methods to test, using the highest spot
on the wheel (the first one.. that is :lol: )
as I didn't cop that the wheel is recessed on the upper section of the chassis,
and I wasn't going to try seeing how variable the casting was, regarding the unworked portion of the wheel.
After seeing how true the lower wheel was, I'm still hoping I can make it tell the truth regarding the upper wheel, fingers crossed!.

A last ditch attempt I've made, which I'm eager to see, no creaking noise during the one single turn I gave it, which is a good sign I suppose, leaving that until later on.
Seems you folks might be getting to know my bandsaw inside and out. :lol:
Daft as you like, but I reckon I could be just lucky.
Doesn't look as bad as I thought either.

Not tried setup yet, but the blade is tracking very far back.
I've gotta few more strips of tape yet to go.
SAM_7314.JPG
(294.88 KiB)


With very optimistic anticipation, I'll see ye soon to report back.
All the best
Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 31 Mar 2023, 01:29

Hello again
Without expecting miracles, I got some time to spend back at the machine,
and whilst tracking the blade, heard that fimiliar thunk again,
so that solves that, not worth flipping the wheel. :lol:

For interests sake, I decided to see what sort of a reading I'd get,
Noting the top wheel needed to be scooted further out, so the edge of the rubber was coplanar.
Didn't think that I gleaned anything from doing so, but looking at the lines of both on the computer,
It seems there is some opposites happening,
which I was thinking might have some importance down the road, should I be able to figure that out, or for someone else to make sense of.
SAM_7338.JPG
(283.06 KiB)


Just as not to add confusion, I've peeled off the tape off the back of wheel, and will be referring to things like it was originally.

Seemingly it's a bit feckered, guess I may have loosened things up a bit by swapping the wheel over and manually tracking the blade, as the rear bearing has some noticeable slop now, and ability of the outer race to rotate inside the bore, which wasn't apparent before.


Time for a proper inspection this time
Made up a tool for the circlips. glasses required, and some extra bits needed.!
SAM_7348.JPG
(325.64 KiB)


The front bearing was still solid, so perhaps half a chance of some sort'a fix.
SAM_7354.JPG
(242.86 KiB)


Whilst pondering about finding someone to re-machine the bore and fit a sleeve,
as in this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7131&hilit=Centauro

I wonder what the solution was to keep the bearings seated, as surely cutting a groove into the new sleeve might be troublesome, comparing to the Centauro which seems to have a little more meat there.
Remembering a solution for that could be made much like Jack Forsberg's Poitras wheels,
so not impossible to make a sort of cap instead, and welding a washer to the wheel shaft,
as I guess it's not a done thing to machine only one side.
poitras 001 - YouTube.png
(595.73 KiB)


If not, then seems worth a bash at another solution I'd been pondering before, but instead
decided to see if a spacer might have been a better idea.
Seemingly I could fit the other two bearings into there,
Turns out I've got two which could be used for the job...
SAM_7355.JPG
(290.74 KiB)


Not to mention, the remnants of another, :eusa-think:
SAM_7356.JPG
(306.03 KiB)


Seems like that outer race might make a good tool, combined with super fancy 3m stikit abrasive
might get the job done.
Seems I've got nuthfin to loose?
and it possibly might be a more reliable fix for the loose fitting rear bearing if I used the bearing compound.
SAM_7357.JPG
(259.88 KiB)


Be nice if that could be a fix, only one way to find out!

Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 02 May 2023, 22:39

Hello again
only getting back at this now as the weathers been good.
After some pondering and procrastination, seems with this contraption like I might, just about... be in with a a shot of bodging this!
(bearing in mind this is optimistic, to say the least.)
Too early to say if it'll work or not though.

Getting some use from my pillar drill
SAM_7372.JPG
(302.17 KiB)


Nasty stuff to cut, plenty of oil needed for the dust
SAM_7373.JPG
(268.99 KiB)


SAM_7382.JPG
(295.93 KiB)


Turned on the lathe with a wooden mandrel thereafter, and cleaned up with remounting on the 30mm bit, as I have only a cheap lathe with no chuck
the pillar drill is more accurate to bring the three surfaces to better tolerance, and should'a drilled the four holes after instead of beforehand...
Just incase I need make another.
SAM_7395.JPG
(364.5 KiB)


SAM_7383.JPG
(330.78 KiB)



Drilled and transferred graphite on wheel rim..ground a point on some thread for marking.
SAM_7417.JPG
(220.01 KiB)


Drilled appropriate sized holes for router bit and wheel retaining bolt
SAM_7424.JPG
(223.91 KiB)


Upon testing the jig I noted a tight area, but seemingly not regarding the circumference and possibly just a little area on the inner part of the wheel.
I should note that the front bearing is still tight, I swapped it out for one of the old ones I had.
I don't think I'd be in with a chance with this otherwise.
SAM_7434.JPG
(239.23 KiB)


Marked out the bore to see if something might become apparent, not even a hint of something obvious
SAM_7435.JPG
(268.23 KiB)


This is a job where your knees are best not in a heap from landscaping.
Very easy to cock the contraption whilst boring to depth, don't lean too heavy.
Turns out the little bit of the plank overhanging makes lovely handles.
SAM_7437.JPG
(235.06 KiB)
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 02 May 2023, 23:06

Getting past the original spec bore, to get into the wallowed area, means I may need to make another bore insert
SAM_7444.JPG
(305.26 KiB)


Cleaned up and full depth, taking nothing off anymore
SAM_7466.JPG
(294.47 KiB)


Taking another lick off it with some masking tape, back to boring it to depth again, being even lighter handed than before.
SAM_7471.JPG
(320.76 KiB)


Another lick, hoping to get the tool to drop into the bottom without needing to be well worked down into the bore.
Still messing around yet, and likely will have to make another tool.
I've got an outer race which I'm testing the fit with.
SAM_7472.JPG
(293.05 KiB)



With a bit more pondering, after forgetting the wheel retaining screw was present underneath and pulling up the bearing through the bore...
I thought it might be likely more helpful for others who don't have the luxury of having one bearing seating well, and perhaps myself also,
if I had a go at possibly improving matters, and seating two more of these old bearings for more surface area ...
and perhaps for interest sake also, having pondered if the races could be used for extra rigidity, though there is 0.4 of some sort of shim needed if so,
as there would be slop in-between the circlips.

Not that I noticed any slop with the single bearing, but that perhaps it might be legitimate a reasonable bodge for others..should this work.
Also thinking I might notice a ridge whilst inserting the shaft, but no hint of anything there.

Took out the bearing to photo
SAM_7476.JPG
(216.22 KiB)

You might make out a pair of score lines from pulling the bearing through.
SAM_7474.JPG
(296.98 KiB)


Hoping to get witness marks mostly on the bottom/deepest area, as I reckon it might be slightly tapered at this point.
SAM_7480.JPG
(314.8 KiB)

SAM_7484.JPG
(287.61 KiB)


Needed to use the wheel retaining washer to plunge the tool deeper, (I made a heftier one which wouldn't warp)
and got a bit greedy, tape slips and mushes up, clean and repeat.
This might be a sign that I was removing the deeper area, still unsure really, and I filmed and watched again, still none the wiser.
Likely needs another lick, and possibly some selective removal, but will be cutting the stainless steel shim stock of sorts to see what the fit is like, before proceeding further.

Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 21 Oct 2023, 19:59

Didn't post a follow up on the rest, as I wanted to give some idea of whether the bore fix
would hold up.
Not gave the machine a good test yet, as I wanted to get stuck into working on the tablesaw.
Regardless of that, the fix proved successful for the interesting part, so I'll get this bit over with.

Bearing in mind, I don't have the funds to splash out on getting an engineer to fix it, :eusa-violin:
and this is not intended as any sort of tute, but a bandwheel boring bodge bonanza. :lol:

I have documented this better on the bandsaw forum for those who like the misery.
Some little changes made for the second bearing journal, mainly removing one of the bearings,
and inserting a shim under the puck.
SAM_7944.JPG
(316.19 KiB)

And some sleeves made from an old toaster
SAM_7617.JPG
(195.39 KiB)


Turned out a pair of old bearings would make great bearing spacers,
a well thought out wheel for sure.
The pair of outer races, to ensure the sleeve doesn't try to escape.
SAM_7669.JPG
(321.84 KiB)


Now that's over with, time for the interesting part.
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 21 Oct 2023, 21:25

Now that the wheel has proven to be solid, time for further inspection.

I mentioned the variable earlier, thereabouts around 4mm.
Here's the picture again for ye's
SAM_7208.JPG
(282.4 KiB)


That was because it turned out my upper wheel face had a 0.5mm discrepancy,
the thickness of my Shinwa rule.
The lower wheel had about half this.
SAM_7787.JPG
(269.53 KiB)


So using the scribing beam, whilst rotating the wheels, and testing again...
I found my 24" wheels needed to be dressed to around 0.2mm for the 4mm error to disappear,
i.e the pen lands in the same spot.
SAM_7760.JPG
(212.43 KiB)


Custom height file handle, though would be much better to choose thicker stock,
so the file cannot be used upside down!..
SAM_7761.JPG
(233.67 KiB)


Draw filing is nessecairy to get some sorta bite,
but it does leave ridges, so likely a good idea to switch to a finer file,
or indeed perhaps a diamond hone?
I "tried" other affixed methods, like a second cut files edge,
which had no impact, and likely just followed the humps and valleys, just like a method I tried earlier, which I won't bother showing.
Too lazy to weld up a hefty bracket, and drill an old file to do the job,
though if I'd the space for some lemons, I certainly would.
SAM_7790.JPG
(279.46 KiB)


With the wheels now accurate, that alignment were possible,
a true datum line was scribed, and everything aligned.
I did revisit the motor, so might as well show that.

Now aligned on both axis
SAM_7961-01.jpeg
(81.33 KiB)


A bearing with a larger ID I had hanging around, done the job nicely,
but any sort of similar shaped thing, what's accurate would do the same.
SAM_7840.JPG
(249.57 KiB)


Now that's what you call sure-worthy co-planar adjustment ;)
SAM_7863.JPG
(283.74 KiB)


Figured out also, there's no such thing as flat tires,
which was very apparent whilst attempting to cut some green ash using a 3TPI blade,
with no/not much set.
I couldn't get the cut completed until I dressed a crown on the tires,
as per Centauro's spec (crown 1mm closer to the front edge)
and then it were just about possible.
That's mentioned on the SP manual, which I only seen recently

" MAIN TROUBLE AND RELATIVE REMEDIES "


The blade moves very far back when it receives the cutting force
- Insufficient flywheel seal convexity, notify the technical service of the area dealer.

Not to mention mentioned on the ACM promo also.
Those being the two biggest names in the business, so I think that myth is busted. :lol:
p.s there is accounting for the tongue in this picture, (it ain't one piece of timber, the tongue is in-between two timbers in-line)
SAM_8048.JPG
(219.19 KiB)


Just seems as such, if not stretched out
SAM_7994.JPG
(177.29 KiB)


One could speculate in my ignorance, that a machine aligned just well enough for the blade guides to be set very closely, without contact being good enough for some...
but seemingly what might have a tendency to compress set, if the tires don't have sufficient profile.
As without even cutting anything, and playing by the Italian's rules with a 3/4" blade "teeth off the rubber" ...
On a tire with such a flat profile, will do such a thing?
I've experienced this twice now, with a blade which was cutting plenty of iroko,
and another new one the same.

Once I changed blades, the saw will happily cut now, as one would expect. :eusa-dance:
SAM_8120.JPG
(268.31 KiB)


So some food for thought for those who don't have a Centauro CO
or another saw which has a foot mounted adjustable motor, and accurate groove in the wheels!

All the best
Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby Cabinetman » 21 Oct 2023, 22:01

I’ve not been able to follow it all Tom but this caught my attention.
"The blade moves far back when it encounters cutting force" — that’s from memory, don’t you have a bearing or similar behind the blade?
Cabinetman
Old Oak
 
Posts: 3144
Joined: 11 Oct 2020, 07:32
Location: Lincolnshire Wolds + Pennsylvania
Name: Ian

Re: Bandsaw wheel and motor alignment, and whatever else.

Postby TomTrees » 21 Oct 2023, 23:00

Cabinetman wrote:I’ve not been able to follow it all Tom but this caught my attention.
"The blade moves far back when it encounters cutting force" — that’s from memory, don’t you have a bearing or similar behind the blade?


Indeed I do have a thrust roller guide Ian, and one of the issues I were having, was the blade walking back onto it with barely any pressure atall, effectively slowing down the motor, plus the blade becoming deflected also.
Now I have lots of "beam tension" with the crowned tires, ala something like the Centauro spare tire profile, that I don't need upgrade the thrust guide, nor the side rollers either (all a bit sloppy from having welded a new face onto them)

Might as well post some on that, even though it's kinda a lousy method, and more difficult than
what I've done to crown tires in the past, it might be less irksome for someone who doesn't wish to hone the sides of their plane iron, and doesn't have some better method readily available.

So decided to try using some saw plate for the job, and profiled it accordingly
SAM_8061.JPG
(308.45 KiB)





I found this diamond tool nice for final touching,
as it turns out it's not a good idea to have a perfect fit, since that can wipe out the apex
the very thing one is trying to establish!
SAM_8079.JPG
(251.42 KiB)


It turned out the block I were using was too narrow, so I glued another bit onto it,
to allow for shimming with duct tape,
so the block is aligned on two axis now, bearing in mind the wheels are actually trustworthy now.

SAM_8083.JPG
(340.8 KiB)


SAM_8082-01.jpeg
(103.73 KiB)

SAM_8082-02.jpeg
(91.03 KiB)


Whilst making sure the wheel is coplanar, of course! :oops:
That cost me some rubber & effort
SAM_8108.JPG
(271.29 KiB)


Advancing the cutter is much nicer with some sorta wedging system
I done similar with the upper wheel, but didn't have a blade installed,
so it might not be very advisable to show, as I reckon I might've tipped the upper wheel at some stage.
SAM_8101.JPG
(276.93 KiB)


Couldn't say it gives excellent results, as the saw plate is kinda soft for the job.
Thankfully the blade seems happy enough though.
SAM_8105.JPG
(258.78 KiB)

SAM_8106.JPG
(249.02 KiB)


Tom
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Previous

Return to Machines & Power Toolery

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest