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Sympathy required

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Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 01 Dec 2014, 18:10

To say that it took me all day to get to this stage is a slight exaggeration but I have nothing else to show for my efforts.
Image

This is the 2nd time the jaws split the wood on this piece. The first time I just made the bowl a bit smaller. This time I stopped and had a cup of tea.

I did a test on some apple I stuck together at the weekend and on a harder denser wood the jaws held just fine. On the softer chestnut methinks I need to go a lot deeper.
This is a shame as I prefer the look of the finished bowl with a recess rather than a spigot.

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby 9fingers » 01 Dec 2014, 18:40

I'm not a turner but could you make it with a spigot and cut that away later?

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby RogerS » 01 Dec 2014, 18:50

Andy, that must be so frustrating for you. I am not a turner and so can't offer any advice, I'm afraid.

I would have drunk something stronger.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 01 Dec 2014, 19:03

9fingers wrote:I'm not a turner but could you make it with a spigot and cut that away later?

Bob


Bob, maybe. I can't work out how to hold the bowl and cut away the spigot. I'll have to google that one.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 01 Dec 2014, 19:04

RogerS wrote:Andy, that must be so frustrating for you. I am not a turner and so can't offer any advice, I'm afraid.

I would have drunk something stronger.


I was tempted but still had to drive the car to pick the kids up.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby 9fingers » 01 Dec 2014, 19:56

Andyp wrote:
9fingers wrote:I'm not a turner but could you make it with a spigot and cut that away later?

Bob


Bob, maybe. I can't work out how to hold the bowl and cut away the spigot. I'll have to google that one.


Could you not part it off once the bowl was otherwise complete? No need to hold the bowl at all then.

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 01 Dec 2014, 20:27

I would not fancy using a parting tool so close to the jaws. Seems a simple method is to use non slip mat on an mdf disc then use the taIl stock to hold it on then gently part alway the spigot until there is only a mm or two left. I have some non slip mat somewhere so will give that a try.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby 9fingers » 01 Dec 2014, 20:34

Andyp wrote:I would not fancy using a parting tool so close to the jaws. Seems a simple method is to use non slip mat on an mdf disc then use the taIl stock to hold it on then gently part alway the spigot until there is only a mm or two left. I have some non slip mat somewhere so will give that a try.


On a proper lathe (Engineering) parting off right up against the chuck is the safest and best place to do it.

Surely you could have a spigot long enough to give you enough working room to part off free hand?

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Pinch » 01 Dec 2014, 20:37

Yep, that must be so frustrating :evil: :|
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Rod » 02 Dec 2014, 00:09

Cannot really see but can you hold the top in your expanding jaws and turn the base again, removing the damage and cutting deeper?

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Dalboy » 02 Dec 2014, 00:39

The only reasons this happens (well to me that is) if you over tighten the jaws when you do not have enough meat around the socket. Other reasons are, there is a fault in the wood and even getting a catch can twist the piece and cause it. Without knowing the full story it is difficult to say. You may be able to rescue it. do you have a picture of the top.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 02 Dec 2014, 09:02

9fingers wrote:
Andyp wrote:I would not fancy using a parting tool so close to the jaws. Seems a simple method is to use non slip mat on an mdf disc then use the taIl stock to hold it on then gently part alway the spigot until there is only a mm or two left. I have some non slip mat somewhere so will give that a try.


On a proper lathe (Engineering) parting off right up against the chuck is the safest and best place to do it.

Surely you could have a spigot long enough to give you enough working room to part off free hand?

Bob


Bob, I am sure your are right. It's my skill level and confidence that are probably lacking. The problem, as I see it, with a larger spigot is that you need a thicker piece of wood to start with, something I am short of at the moment. I will try later with a small spigot then remove it as I suggested earlier by jamming between the tail stock and face plate with some anti-slip mat.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 02 Dec 2014, 09:14

Dalboy wrote:The only reasons this happens (well to me that is) if you over tighten the jaws when you do not have enough meat around the socket. Other reasons are, there is a fault in the wood and even getting a catch can twist the piece and cause it. Without knowing the full story it is difficult to say. You may be able to rescue it. do you have a picture of the top.
As you may know I do a little turning myself Have a look HERE


Some very nice nice pieces there and plenty of inspiration.

Meat around the socket and over tightening I am sure was the cause.
Here is the bowl in profile
Image

and from the top
Image

as you can see I had just begun to hollow out.

And here is the practice piece I turned earlier in apple. The harder, more dense wood provided a more secure fix to the jaws with the same depth recess.
Image

Image

Image
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 02 Dec 2014, 09:15

Rod wrote:Cannot really see but can you hold the top in your expanding jaws and turn the base again, removing the damage and cutting deeper?

Rod


I don't think so Rod. I had just started to hollow out so I cannot even get the screw chuck back on the top.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Deejay » 02 Dec 2014, 10:56

Morning Andy

Seems a simple method is to use non slip mat on an mdf disc then use the taIl stock to hold it on then gently part alway the spigot until there is only a mm or two left.

Before you do this, you could turn a spigot from a bit of scrap and glue it into the socket. Mount the bowl on the spigot and finish the inside.

Then reverse mount it and remove the scrap spigot.

As Dalboy says, you might be over tightening it. If you overtighten a spigot it doesn't matter so much 'cos you remove it later, or turn it into a foot.

If you use a bit of 'nice' scrap for the spigot, perhaps something to contrast with the rest of the bowl, you will have a bit more wood to play with if the bottom gets thin when you turn the inside.

Cheers

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby chataigner » 02 Dec 2014, 12:20

Andyp wrote:I would not fancy using a parting tool so close to the jaws. Seems a simple method is to use non slip mat on an mdf disc then use the taIl stock to hold it on then gently part alway the spigot until there is only a mm or two left. I have some non slip mat somewhere so will give that a try.


Thats how I've seen it done, but not tried it myself.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 02 Dec 2014, 13:10

Deejay wrote:Morning Andy

Seems a simple method is to use non slip mat on an mdf disc then use the taIl stock to hold it on then gently part alway the spigot until there is only a mm or two left.

Before you do this, you could turn a spigot from a bit of scrap and glue it into the socket. Mount the bowl on the spigot and finish the inside.

Then reverse mount it and remove the scrap spigot.

As Dalboy says, you might be over tightening it. If you overtighten a spigot it doesn't matter so much 'cos you remove it later, or turn it into a foot.

If you use a bit of 'nice' scrap for the spigot, perhaps something to contrast with the rest of the bowl, you will have a bit more wood to play with if the bottom gets thin when you turn the inside.

Cheers

Dave


Dave thanks. I'll try and recover the bowl by plugging the recess as you suggested.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 02 Dec 2014, 13:12

chataigner wrote:
Andyp wrote:I would not fancy using a parting tool so close to the jaws. Seems a simple method is to use non slip mat on an mdf disc then use the taIl stock to hold it on then gently part alway the spigot until there is only a mm or two left. I have some non slip mat somewhere so will give that a try.


Thats how I've seen it done, but not tried it myself.


Sorry David, which method?. Parting tool close the jaws, or reverse mounting on a non slip surface and part away the spigot at the tailstock.a
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Dalboy » 02 Dec 2014, 14:51

After looking at the pictures I think that Deejay idea of making a spigot to fit into the socket is possibly the best idea. If you was to turn a new socket then it might cut into the hole you drilled for the screw chuck.

Whenever you turn a spigot or socket to mount a piece always make sure that you cut it with the correct angle to suit the jaws.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Deejay » 02 Dec 2014, 17:41

Afternoon Andy

This might help ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdn0PdySkh4

If you don't want to turn a jam chuck you can use a flat plate mounted on a spindle. Turn the spindle to fit your chuck's 'sweet spot' so that the jaws grip all round. Pilot drill a hole and screw and glue the plate (19 mm MDF ?) on and then turn off the corners of the plate. They hurt your hands. DAMHIKT. You end up with something like a round plasterer's hawk. Mount the bowl as shown above with the tailstock supporting it.

Go steady with sharp tools.

Cheers

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 02 Dec 2014, 21:12

In trying to true up the recess in the chestnut bowl I caught an edge and ripped out still more of the bowl so that one has ended up on the fire. I'll put it down to experience.

I started another bowl in apple with a recess for the chuck. Unfortunately this also split while hollowing :( so I reduced it a bit in depth and made a spigot. Unfortunately, a split/crack developed in the side :( . Further tuning and the split disappeared but now I have at best a small dish, maybe just a plate, rather than a bowl. Not enough time to finish hollowing this afternoon so I'll share when it is finished.

Dave,
Thanks for the vid. In my mind I had envisaged as per your "round plasterer's hawk". I'll see what I come up with when completing the current piece.
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Rod » 03 Dec 2014, 13:16

You can salvaged things some of the time - I managed it on the vase I made many years ago by gluing on a piece of Blackwood:

Image

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Re: Sympathy required

Postby big soft moose » 06 Mar 2015, 08:45

thread revival i know (ive only just found this place again) , but with regard to holding to remove spigots (and true up bases etc) , i've never regretted buying the large set of button jaws from axminster to go on my versa chuck.

being able to hold either inside or outside a bowl, form etc revolutionised things for me and has cumulatively saved hours messing about with jam jugs and jigs

like this http://www.toolsandtimber.co.uk/axminst ... tAod8E0AkA
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Re: Sympathy required

Postby Andyp » 06 Mar 2015, 12:53

yep, I have a set of button jaws on my shopping list at axi. With any luck will pick them up around easter.

Since this post I have preferred to use spigots rather than recesses which so far have not failed. Cleaning up the bases at the moment by using the jaws in expansion mode on the inside of the bowl with rubber bands for protection. This does require the insides to be undercut but that is not a bad thing.


Welcome to the forum by the way.
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