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Staircase upgrade - ...

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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum

Postby RogerS » 27 Feb 2021, 18:22

Without any reference points, it's hard to judge the exact dimensions of the handrail profile that I'm trying to recreate. So I started off with simply a large length of wood approx 70mm square. Guessed the top convex radius to be about 60mm and so ran that through the spindle moulder, the two scallops on either side of it made from a 25mm radius cutter...another couple of passes.

I estimated the vertical flats and spacings. Got hold of a few large dowels of differing radii , sliced pieces off them with the bandsaw and offered them up. Finally settling on a 35mm dia dowel. The smaller radius on the very bottom is 5mm.

Glued them all on, stained it up a little, sanded and waxed it and offered it up to Chief Designer. It fitted my big hands but not hers. So gradually took slices out of the middle to reduce the width and now it's spot on. It feels very comfortable in the hand and, though I say it myself, a very passable replica of the original.

Image

Spent an hour or so measuring up and making the drawings for the cutters.

Image

Next up, work out how much ABW to get and whether or not I want to spend an awful lot of spondoolicks to also buy a very wide length so that the wreath and curves etc can come out of one piece rather than glue pieces together to get the width. The plus point is it gives me over 2m to play with after Horlicks 1, Horlicks 2, .....Horlicks 3 etc

With regard to these, I'm wondering whether or not I can use one of those flexicurves to get me started in the right direction rather than make my small brain ache trying to understand what all this tangent stuff is all about.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - handrail profile defined

Postby Mike G » 27 Feb 2021, 19:39

I'm sure that in a modern workshop set up for doing this sort of thing, all the curves are worked out in 3 dimensions in advance of using a single tool. I'm also certain that 100 years ago this would have been done with a whittling-down-and-fairing approach.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - handrail profile defined

Postby AndyT » 27 Feb 2021, 19:45

This might be the right time to include this picture of some handrail planes, which would have been used for the straight bits and the big curves.

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https://taths.org.uk/tools-trades/queri ... ail-planes
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Re: Staircase upgrade - handrail profile defined

Postby RogerS » 27 Feb 2021, 22:32

Mike G wrote:I'm sure that in a modern workshop set up for doing this sort of thing, all the curves are worked out in 3 dimensions in advance of using a single tool. I'm also certain that 100 years ago this would have been done with a whittling-down-and-fairing approach.


Companies like Clive Durose will send someone out to digitise the stair etc and then using their 5-axis CNC machine produce the handrail. For a price !
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 28 Feb 2021, 18:38

I've taken on board what folk have said about spindle lengths but how to decide what they should be given my problem on the bottom step and the step change in height.

Thinking things through, there is one 'given' - namely the minimum height of the handrail (unless I want to ignore Building Regs ...after all the original handrail was below the requirement).

So I mocked up a handrail at the minimum height as my de facto starting point.
Image
It's also useful for giving me a sense of the wreath shape required on the quarter landing turn. But that's for another day.

Adding a handrail (less a bit to inset the spindles underneath) got me to here.

Image

Then I offered up a spindle on the bottom step to see where it struck the handrail because it is at this point that the handrail needs to be level so it can turn into the volute. And therein lies the rub. It can't be level at this point as it's still part of the slope.

Image

This picture is telling me that that spindle is where it should start to level off. But there's no room on the bottom tread.

There are various options - none of which will look right. I can add an extension to that spindle but it's still too close to the nosing on the tread. I could add even more to the height which would let me mov e it inboard. Perhaps that is the only option.

:eusa-think:
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby TrimTheKing » 28 Feb 2021, 18:42

Turn, or have turned, a slightly longer spindle(s) for that area. Path of least resistance!
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 28 Feb 2021, 19:08

A few very poor options I've come up with.

Option A...as mentioned..raise the height. Trouble with that is for it to really work, the height of the volute from actual floor level is 1300m which I think is too high ?

Image

Option B...just looks plain ugly especially going into a volute.

Image

Option C...radical. Turn the handrail and extend it all the way down to the floor. It might work with a round handrail but I don't think it will with my preferred option.

Image
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby Cabinetman » 28 Feb 2021, 19:18

I see your problem Roger, I’m afraid the only thing I can think of, probably isn’t what you want to hear, how about turning up a large biscuit tin to sit on the bottom step out of the top of which come the spindles. This would give you the height you require hopefully, not ideal but it would work. Ian
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 28 Feb 2021, 19:19

TrimTheKing wrote:Turn, or have turned, a slightly longer spindle(s) for that area. Path of least resistance!


If I go down that route I'll just add on square wood and domino them together. I'll try mocking up something at the extra eight tomorrow as I think that is the only solution unless the forum members can come up with something more creative.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 28 Feb 2021, 19:20

Cabinetman wrote:I see your problem Roger, I’m afraid the only thing I can think of, probably isn’t what you want to hear, how about turning up a large biscuit tin to sit on the bottom step out of the top of which come the spindles. This would give you the height you require hopefully, not ideal but it would work. Ian


Thanks Ian for reminding me of that option. May well mock that one up as well.

EDIT: Just realised that that solution has the same height issue as Option A ! The end result is the same.. :D
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby Malc2098 » 28 Feb 2021, 19:21

Would it be possible to lower the handrail on the lower section so you could place the first bottom tread spindle closer to the riser? I've no idea how much you would have to lower it it, but could it be done?
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby TrimTheKing » 28 Feb 2021, 19:24

Can you not just do option B but not start the flat section until the rail hits that spindle? Surely the rail could hit that spindle on the straight then immediately turn into the volute?
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 28 Feb 2021, 19:33

TrimTheKing wrote:Can you not just do option B but not start the flat section until the rail hits that spindle? Surely the rail could hit that spindle on the straight then immediately turn into the volute?


That might just work :eusa-think:
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 28 Feb 2021, 19:33

Malc2098 wrote:Would it be possible to lower the handrail on the lower section so you could place the first bottom tread spindle closer to the riser? I've no idea how much you would have to lower it it, but could it be done?


That sounds like Option B, Malc.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby Doug71 » 28 Feb 2021, 19:42

If you look at what I think of as a proper volute the handrail height is still going down while it turns like this

https://www.haldaneuk.com/news/timber-handrails-hull

The off the shelf ones are often flat once the turn starts like this

https://www.jacksonwoodturners.co.uk/oa ... lcQAvD_BwE

If you do it the first way it would lower things?
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby TrimTheKing » 28 Feb 2021, 19:45

RogerS wrote:
TrimTheKing wrote:Can you not just do option B but not start the flat section until the rail hits that spindle? Surely the rail could hit that spindle on the straight then immediately turn into the volute?


That might just work :eusa-think:


Sorry I meant option A.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby HOJ » 28 Feb 2021, 19:52

If some one has a copy of George Ellis's book Modern practical stair building & hand railing, there is a picture on page 2 (plate 3) of a handrail with volute, which may help, I cant copy it.

On the basis the volute travels round to match the bottom step, you can start to rise the handrail on the turn of the sweep, difficult to describe.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby HOJ » 28 Feb 2021, 19:54

Doug71 beat me to it, I was going through the book.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby Malc2098 » 28 Feb 2021, 20:59

RogerS wrote:
Malc2098 wrote:Would it be possible to lower the handrail on the lower section so you could place the first bottom tread spindle closer to the riser? I've no idea how much you would have to lower it it, but could it be done?


That sounds like Option B, Malc.



I meant the whole flight from ground to the return, not just the bottom tread.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby AndyT » 28 Feb 2021, 21:06

Does the bottom vertical have to be the same as all the others?

I'm pretty sure I've seen stairs with a nice curving handrail with a more substantial post at the bottom. Not a newel post sticking up above the rail, just a turned post underneath the bottom of the rail, 2 to 3 inches in diameter.

It's also more sturdy when lent on sideways.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 28 Feb 2021, 23:14

Thanks everyone. I think Doug's nailed it with that Haldane handrail :text-bravo:
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby Malc2098 » 01 Mar 2021, 23:37

Here y'are, Roger. Grab yourself a glass of your favourite and sit back and see how it's done. :)

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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby Mike G » 02 Mar 2021, 08:14

TrimTheKing wrote:Can you not just do option B but not start the flat section until the rail hits that spindle? Surely the rail could hit that spindle on the straight then immediately turn into the volute?


Well, once the rail line has hit the spindle there would be no need for the handrail to step down. So you have the right answer, I reckon, but applied to the wrong option. I'd say option A then level out......exactly as HOJ describes.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby Cabinetman » 02 Mar 2021, 08:54

It wouldn’t let me watch it all unfortunately, the guy on the bandsaw cutting the round shape isn’t going to keep his full set of Fingers or hands for very long! Gave me the shivers just watching him.
Last edited by Cabinetman on 02 Mar 2021, 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Staircase upgrade - conundrum Part 2

Postby RogerS » 02 Mar 2021, 09:02

Thanks everyone. Starting to come clearer.

I love the fag hanging out of the corner of his mouth !

There's a fair number of videos out there and it's interesting to see the different approaches between East and West. Here in the West, a lot of folk use the tangent system. Many of those in the East simply eyeball everything and JFDI. I'm not sure which way I will go as yet. Probably the latter as every time I try and get to grips with the tangent system, my eyes glaze over and I remember there was something else I should be doing.
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