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Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby the bear » 22 Sep 2015, 22:51

Dan
With regard to wanting as open a space within the roof area as possible, have you researched doing a structural ridge beam ?
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 22 Sep 2015, 23:11

Hi Mark, I am honing my plan, but I am doing a structural ridge beam, its going to be 2x9 - 7.2 m long in one piece. 6x2 Rafters at 600 centres. 35 degree pitch. 6x2 tie joists at plate level each end and raised by a third in between. May omit rafter ties altogether for two of the central pairs of rafters. (will see) I will also put collar ties in just under the ridge beam, but I know that isn't strictly necessary. Sound ok?

The bit that I have been unsure about is whether or not I can safely omit the ties altogether in the middle, and if so for how many rafter pairs. I am using doubled up wall plates in 4x2 all round.

I have researched it quite a lot and given there are so many variables its difficult to gauge this without expert knowledge re loading etc.

All observations gratefully received Mark!

Dan :D
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Wizard9999 » 22 Sep 2015, 23:12

Dan0741 wrote:?..It is confusing though without understanding the processes at play because the OSB on the outside for a wall is a strict no-no, and one would assume that a roof wouldn't be too different...


Dan

We may have done this to death, but I think the difference is the ventilation. The walls with OSB on inside and outside wold be as good as sealed units with no airflow, in a roof you need to ensure ventilation to get any moisture out.

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 22 Sep 2015, 23:20

I agree, looking at wall construction detail has not filled me with excitement, on a par with soakaway design! With this inclement weather did your leak resurface?
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Wizard9999 » 22 Sep 2015, 23:22

Dan0741 wrote:So first full day of framing, and a word of caution here; I know this will not be the stuff of edge of your seat excitement for most. However I have enjoyed it immensely...

Oh come on, you know we love it ;)

Dan0741 wrote:The ones with a couple of 6x2 headers are frighteningly heavy, much more so now they are wet. I have a plan to build the last end section (that has a 6 foot wide door opening) without screwing in the header and install that when its upright.

Yes, I had also assumed that my end panel with a 1.8m door opening would be the lightest frame, but no the doubled up 200x50 meant it was the heaviest by far. Whilst putting the headers in after it is up will make raising it easier, actually lifting the headers into place, holding them and fixing them on your own could be tough or even dangerous to be honest. I went for the manpower solution and roped two friends in to help. There must be somebody that can lend a hand. Even Mike had Dave to help with getting his frames up. Where is NN6, maybe somebody on the forum is close and can lend a hand?

Dan0741 wrote:I am about half way I recon, and so by thurs pm should be done - assembly Friday. I get that this is shamefully slow but as I'm breaking new ground I'm having to work things out as I go.

Rubbish man, you're flying along, don't let anyone tell you any different!

Dan0741 wrote:Praying for good weather tomorrow, it takes the edge off it doing in the rain!

I am sure that is the case, but from personal experience I can assure you it is also no fun at all doing this in the depths of winter, so you are doing exactly the right thing cracking on now.

Great job, great posts, really enjoying it!

Terry.
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Wizard9999 » 22 Sep 2015, 23:23

Dan0741 wrote:I agree, looking at wall construction detail has not filled me with excitement, on a par with soakaway design! With this inclement weather did your leak resurface?


No sign of it at all thank goodness! Whilst it could be hidden under the insulation / floor I still think if it was leaking I would see dampness in the walls.

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Deejay » 23 Sep 2015, 08:29

Morning Dan

Any pointers; fill your boots!

Start with two sections in a corner. Clamp them plumb, bolt them together and fix them to the plinth.

After that it's reatively easy.

Cheers

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 23 Sep 2015, 08:46

Deejay wrote:Morning Dan

Any pointers; fill your boots!

Start with two sections in a corner. Clamp them plumb, bolt them together and fix them to the plinth.

After that it's reatively easy.

Cheers

Dave


Well Dave - as you say - its all relative... but I will let you know sat - fingers crossed!

Terry - I have some mates coming on Friday, problem with this sort of thing is it seems to start a rash of phantom bad backs!!

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Rob » 23 Sep 2015, 09:06

LOL...have they started e mailing you sick notes yet :-)
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby 9fingers » 23 Sep 2015, 10:14

9fingers wrote:I'll see if I have an early photo. The roof surface is now masked with solar panels!

Bob


I found a photo of the roof - not a brilliant view but the best I have. Also shows ridge capping

Hope it helps.

Bob

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Rob » 23 Sep 2015, 10:43

so are those solar panels supplying your house or just the shed Bob?
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby 9fingers » 23 Sep 2015, 10:53

Rob wrote:so are those solar panels supplying your house or just the shed Bob?


They are grid connected so in effect supply the workshop and house wherever power is needed. Other parts of the system dump excess power into the hot water system so very little escapes to the grid.

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 23 Sep 2015, 11:05

Bob that is exactly the sort thing I'm going to try to replicate, if you don't mind me asking, what angle is your roof slope, do you know off hand? Also what width board are the feather edge, I only ask as its difficult sometimes to make these decisions without seeing then installed. Don't bother measuring if you not sure, I'm just interested.

The workshop sign - love it! Does it have any entry restrictions in small print underneath!! :eusa-naughty:
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby 9fingers » 23 Sep 2015, 12:12

Glad to be of help Dan.
The feather board is 200mm wide, exposed approx 150mm per course, pressure treated and saturated with "full lead" creosote (which can still be purchased! pm me if interested)
This was special order - standard stock sizes are 150 and 125 mm mainly for fencing - I wanted a more chunky look.
Remember only one nail per course vertically - not as I did and used two which causes the boards to split

Roof pitch is 30 degrees. slates have breathable membrane under and unconventionally fitted direct on top of the membrane (too tight to buy battens!!) with stainless screws.
You can get standard width slates as well as "slate and half" for the ends of a course to offset the joints.
Mine were made by Eternit.
Verge trim made from standard plastic soffit protector screwed in place before tiling. Again unconventional but that is me all over !!

hth

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 23 Sep 2015, 22:45

9fingers wrote:Glad to be of help Dan.
The feather board is 200mm wide, exposed approx 150mm per course, pressure treated and saturated with "full lead" creosote (which can still be purchased! pm me if interested)
This was special order - standard stock sizes are 150 and 125 mm mainly for fencing - I wanted a more chunky look.
Remember only one nail per course vertically - not as I did and used two which causes the boards to split

Roof pitch is 30 degrees. slates have breathable membrane under and unconventionally fitted direct on top of the membrane (too tight to buy battens!!) with stainless screws.
You can get standard width slates as well as "slate and half" for the ends of a course to offset the joints.
Mine were made by Eternit.
Verge trim made from standard plastic soffit protector screwed in place before tiling. Again unconventional but that is me all over !!

hth

Bob


Cheers Bob,

By "full lead" is that the stuff we used to use on sheds years ago that meant they lasted forever? My parents have a 4x6 garden shed that has had a coat on every year, inside and out and has lasted for 40 years!

There is consensus on the 1 nail per board and it makes perfect sense given expansion and contraction, but its easy to "put one more in to be sure" I've just my framing and I think there is more metal in it than wood!

Kind regards, and thanks for the tips!

Dan
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 24 Sep 2015, 00:02

So - finished the framing of the walls today. They are all neatly stacked and ready to go on Friday - Even the weather looks good!

Couple of points - In doing the framing I have accurately measured the plinth for the first time - and found something surprising - I have measured it across the diagonals and the straight walls. I can only find 3 mm difference in the diagonals and the straight elements seem absolutely perfect. Now to be clear on a couple of points, I'm quite happy my measuring over 7 or so meters isn't accurate to 3 mm and I take no credit for this but I am quite surprised. I had no idea that tolerances like this were possible, the bricks I've used aren't even straight. Pat on the back my mate who made all the running for the brickwork!

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The framing has gone well, and for those that follow who are as inexperienced as me I think this down to one main point. I calculated all the parts I would need for the various sections, and cut all the pieces that needed to be the same length at the same time. I set out a long table and used a stop that I could push the wood against as I cut it to length. Now I know that this will be basic to some but improved the process immeasurably for me.

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This is all the frames in place, I ended up with a small one on the back which was a complete oversight by me, I was working to internal and external dimensions at the same time! Its not ideal but given that I am having a double roof plate don't think it will cause too many issues.

This is the heaviest by some margin - the double 6x2 header at nearly seven feet long soaked through didn't help!

Image

I have left some of the noggins out till I have a mate with me to keep the weight down.

I made jig and arranged a little production line for bolts - (threaded rod - I too am saving costs). Word of warning again for those that come after me - if you cut this with an angle grinder it can make a hell of a mess of the rod, a hacksaw would probably be better but I don't have vice yet!

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and these are the results - I'm going to bolt the frame sections together top and bottom, and in some places have doubled up the studs so some are quite long! I have bought an extra long drill bit to drill the holes - what's the betting I hit a screw within one of the studs!

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Its all now about prep for Friday when the frames go up, and I need to order some timber, I'm ordering two 9x2 at 7.2 m long, the first I'm going to cut along its length into two roof plates, the second is my ridge beam.

I now need to think about how I will raise that to c4m above the ground safely. My current plan is to make up two towers each of two 4x2 at 4.8 in length separated by a 3 inch gap. At the top of each I will install a runner wheel. Place rope around the beam over the wheel and down to a cleat at ground level. As I raise each end by a foot or so I will screw a stop across the tower to prevent it falling further than a foot at a time if it were to go. Other than screwing the stops I should be able to do it from the ground, some distance from the wall. What do we think? :eusa-doh:
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Mike G » 24 Sep 2015, 07:27

Nice progress, Dan.

I'll admit to not having followed this at all, because I don't have a minute to spare these days, but you look to be doing a nice job. Nice work with the brickwork, too. Getting diagonals that close is good news indeed.

Now, do a little experiment for me....... When you lift your first two panels into position (either side of a corner), put one nail in, and only one, close to the top. Strap the plates down, then give the plates a wobble. You'll be amazed how strong everything is. At that stage, you'll realise that you can put those bolts on one side and save them for your roof. A few nails are more than enough to hold panels together, and don't forget, your plate over the top of the panels (which won't have joints where the panels join), will finished the job in a rock-solid manner.

The trick with using an angle grinder to cut threaded rod is to wind nuts onto each section before you cut it. You then wind one of the nuts back off, and it cleans up the cut enough to be able to put it back on again afterwards....but mind your fingers!!!! The ends can be sharp as razor blades.

Don't forget your DPC!!! :D

You don't need your ridge beam (or plates) to span the whole length of the building. That is going to be a seriously expensive piece of timber. So long as it spans past the untied section we discussed via PM, then you can do a simple scarf joint, or perhaps 2. As for raising it.......that sounds like a good plan, although you'll have to think carefully about the route of the rope, and where you'll be standing. Have some one-handed clamps available. You'll definitely use them.
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Rod » 24 Sep 2015, 08:44

Not having a gun, I found using a screw was much easier ( especially as I was by myself).
Pilot hole through one, hold together with hand and drill through. Very quick and stable.

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 25 Sep 2015, 22:10

Ok all, so today was the big day...Well an intermediate big day!

I started with a DPM all round and then mortar, it was quite windy so had to make some little braces to weigh and hold the ends straight.

Image

Then the wedges and straps moved out of the way.

Image

Image

I didn't manage to take any intermediate framing photos, (hands full!) but here we are at the halfway stage. The irony being that the only frame that was hard work was the little one on this corner. The others were held about straight by their weight, this one wasn't!

Image

Image

I had a mate; (bad back but we were carefull.....) come to help me with the assembly. He was worth his weight in gold. One does seem to get much more done (I mean more than x2) when working in pairs.

We checked each one and then moved onto the next, when that one was done we always checked the previous one.

Image

We checked the levels plate to plate just to make sure we hadn't dropped any clangers..

Image

Then we but some braces in to pull it into fully square.

Image

And we were pretty much done - started at 9 done by 13.30!

Then some wood arrived....

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These are two pieces of 2x9, 7.2m long. One is my ridge beam, the second is a piece I'm going to cut into two 4x2 and use as my second level on the roof plate, to give the rigidity and options in respect of rafter placement.

And this is what it looks like from the house; Too big? I'm not sure, I think the Mrs thinks its too big but hasn't the heart to say! Weather was perfect, no rain and so mortar fine.

Image

Now Mike - Experiment completed - well partially so.

I don't have a nail gun so have screwed this frame, and have used decent 100mm screws as my largest screw. Because of the way I have framed this there was no way that a screw was going to go through the entire junction, so I tried one at an angle, (is this toe nailing, or tosh nailed or similar?) Anyhow it didn't feel secure even with a few of them. Not a fair test though because the second roof plate timber didn't arrive until after we had finished the main framing. So I bolted them. Probably unnecessary when frame is complete; but I had bought enough threaded rod etc. to do them plus the roof.

Image

Then I went round and sorted all the mortar and screwed in all the straps, I need some shorter screws for this so only partially screwed in at this stage.

And in the fading light framing all finished bar the finalising the straps and second roof plates!

Image

I have learnt a valuable lesson today - I have been meticulous to date with all the elements thus far, as regards levels, square and measurements. The groundwork, the brickwork and frame construction. Almost neurotically so....!

BUT this has meant that today (albeit I was prepared for abject disaster) has literally been a pleasure, all of the frames were exactly the right size, were square and when pulled tight have been a millimetre perfect fit. We checked all the horizontals and verticals and they are perfect and the door apertures arrived in exactly the right place. I am so pleased with this because it means that the roof; which is the bit I am most concerned about getting right has the best start possible. I would commend this level of neurosis to anyone who is doing this sort of thing for the first time.

Chuffed to bits!!! :eusa-dance:
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Wizard9999 » 25 Sep 2015, 22:44

Dan0741 wrote:Image...

Chuffed to bits!!! :eusa-dance:


And so you should be Dan. This may be controversial, but I think at this stage your workshop looks more precise than Mikes (ducks and runs for cover...).

One point on the framing. In that corner when you come to put the OSB up you will not have anything to fix it to on the left hand wall in the corner. Now I did the same thing and I kind of badged it, but what that means now is I don't have any frame to fax things to on the wall in the corner on one wall. So you may want to think that through, if you haven't already.

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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 25 Sep 2015, 22:55

Terry - I have thought through that as an issue, but my dilemma was that I put a basic frame together, ie plates and studs, and struggled to lift it. Looking up at black rain clouds, and realising that wet 4x2 and dry are considerably different weights.... I decided not to put anything in the framed that wasn't strictly necessary to get them up and set. Its the same reason I didn't put noggins in, except in the first frame I made. Having set them now, I'm glad I left them "naked" so to speak! ;)
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby firedfromthecircus » 26 Sep 2015, 19:58

Hey Dan. I am completely clueless so I can't offer any advice or criticism, constructive or otherwise. But it looks to me that for someone who is new to this you are doing a fantastic job. So good in fact I think you must be being a bit modest about your experience.
Anyway, loving watching your progress and looking forward to the next bit. :text-bravo:
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 26 Sep 2015, 21:07

firedfromthecircus wrote:Hey Dan. I am completely clueless so I can't offer any advice or criticism, constructive or otherwise. But it looks to me that for someone who is new to this you are doing a fantastic job. So good in fact I think you must be being a bit modest about your experience.
Anyway, loving watching your progress and looking forward to the next bit. :text-bravo:


As will be quite obvious from any comparison of my photos to other threads on this forum and others; I have read and re read how others have done, the pitfalls and the work-arounds and researched this extensively online and spoken to people who know better than me. I have disagreed with some and had different ideas at times, but the value in learning from others is underrated and I have fully capitalised in that regard. And I've made mistakes! But try not to make the same mistake twice! There are areas where I feel woefully behind, dealing with moisture in and out, and the stresses and strains in roof construction are two of them! :?
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Mike G » 26 Sep 2015, 21:15

Excellent Dan. That looks great. There is no better starting point for a roof than having parallel and level plates. With those, it should be simple. Nice to see the wedges in use preventing the frame pushing all the mortar off the wall.

Terry........wash your mouth out! ;) :D
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Re: Dans Shed - Large(ish) workshop construction...

Postby Dan0741 » 26 Sep 2015, 21:56

Today was pretty much a sorting out and finishing of little jobs day, and after the frenetic pace of yesterday I needed it! So I went round and screwed all the straps down. I didn't do that yesterday as I didn't want to pull the frame out of square/level, I needn't have worried, all went in fine. I didn't try to line up studs with straps, that was a consideration too far but have put 3 screws in each one that has folded over the sole plate. One each side and top. I took some snaps - not sexy I grant you but if anyone ever follows along its clear.

Image

Image

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Then I went round and cut all the bolts excess threaded bar off with an angle grinder...and spoilt it all....one of the cut ends fell onto the DPM with the inevitable result.......fuming because I have gone to so much effort to ensure water resistance and I put a hole in it at a critical point! No idea what I can do about it, will have a look tomorrow.

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I then set about the planks of 2x9, I wanted to make sure this went well as I don't have a spare. I even sought help from the Oracle to hold one end. I saved a new saw blade exactly for this purpose as I thought that any dramas would be reduced by a sharp effective cut. Anyway, these are destined to be the full length roof plates, before and after shots...

Image

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This last shot shows the full length roof plate in place with overhang. I want to put a longer gable overhang on one end, as this is the end with the double doors. I am limited to 200mm on the other end due to proximity of boundary. The ridge plate will extend by the same amount, I just need to work out how much of an overhang I can get away with without it looking odd, and also ensure adequate support for the rafters/roof etc given its unsupported. I'm currently thinking no more than 250mm but would like to go further so will have a look at it when I start the roof. I will just chop off what I don't need.

Image

Hoping the weather lasts - its facilitating good progress, its not quite so much fun in the rain! :?
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