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Log cabin kit or self build?

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Oct 2015, 09:10

OK Lee, let me summarise what I think your plan is.

1) concrete lintels as bearers laid on your existing patio, so no digging, no additional foundations

2) a ready made package log cabin on top of these

3) the building will be erected by the company selling it to you

4) the building at 4m wide in a 6m wide garden will allow you to have at least 1m from all boundaries

5) the building will be less than 30m2 internal floor area

If all this is correct then it sounds like you will avoid the need for building regulations.

The link that you most recently provided shows a building that is advertised to be 2.48m high. The one question I would then have is in that figure is there any allowance for the bearers that it will stand on. If not it means that any bearers more than 2cm off the ground will take you over 2.5m.

The other more technical point is that the rules say it has to be the natural ground level, so if your patio is raised above the surrounding ground this would also need to be taken account of if you are building off it.

Now, that is the theory. In practice planning departments do not have the time to run around people's gardens with laser levels and tape measures. So the only way they are likely to be looking at your building would be if one of your neighbours complain to them about it. As you will have seen from Dan's thread recently neighbourly relations are pretty important in all this. You also can't tell what attitude an enforcement officer will have. In our village recently we have had houses built 30cm higher than approved, when ridge height was a big issue in getting consent, but the enforcement people said it was not material and did noting. But they can also get very upset about just 1cm in other cases.

Terry.
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Mike G » 16 Oct 2015, 09:20

Wizard9999 wrote:....4) the building at 4m wide in a 6m wide garden will allow you to have at least 1m from all boundaries.....


Such a building appears to occupy more than 50% of the garden area and thus not be exempt from Planning Permission under Permitted Development rights. Thus the height will be irrelevant. As proposed this building appears to me to require a Planning Application.
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Oct 2015, 09:28

Mike G wrote:
Wizard9999 wrote:....4) the building at 4m wide in a 6m wide garden will allow you to have at least 1m from all boundaries.....


Such a building appears to occupy more than 50% of the garden area and thus not be exempt from Planning Permission under Permitted Development rights. Thus the height will be irrelevant. As proposed this building appears to me to require a Planning Application.


Mike

You keep saying this, but I have no idea how you can know. We have one picture of Lee's garden and have no idea how big the rest of his plot is or indeed whether his house has ever been extended, etc. Lee says it is less than 50%. I am intrigued as to why you are convinced otherwise?

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Mike G » 16 Oct 2015, 09:37

I can't know. But we have photos of the rear garden, which is tiny. I can't imagine that there is a larger area to the front and side of the building, because there almost never is. A building occupying the entirety of a rear garden with the exception of a 1m wide strip around the outside edge is just a bad idea in any circumstance, whether or not it falls within PD.
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Oct 2015, 09:49

Mike G wrote:I can't know. But we have photos of the rear garden, which is tiny. I can't imagine that there is a larger area to the front and side of the building, because there almost never is. A building occupying the entirety of a rear garden with the exception of a 1m wide strip around the outside edge is just a bad idea in any circumstance, whether or not it falls within PD.


But we have no idea whether the picture was taken 5m from the back of the house, or with the photographers back against the house. Also, if the garden at the back is small, surely it is more likely the area in front will be nearer an equivalent size and therefore represent a higher proportion of the total land around the house which the 50% is judged against (I know land in front of the house can't be built on without permission, but the wording suggests it counts when determining the 50%, or am I wrong on that one?)

I know you are finding this thread frustrating, as I am. But as somebody who only delved into this in the last couple of years I'm just trying to grit my teeth and empathise as best I can. At the end of the day if Lee says it will be less than 50% and knows the consequences if this is wrong, then that is his look out.

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 10:27

1st of all let me apologise for frustrating everyone and coming across as stupid, I am not. My DIY experience is flat packs from ikea, beds and one shed 1.5m x 3.5m which came in panels to be screwed together, so this is all new to me.
Anyway I have measured up the garden total 109m squared (the side of the house is 14m squared but I haven't included this as I'm not sure if it counts, not sure if front drive counts either so that's not included either) I have 1 extension on the back 11.9ms, existing shed 5.25ms and proposed cabin will be 20ms.
109 -
37.15
--------
71.85

Ps. I intend to erect the kit cabin myself

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 10:35

Here's the ground with level. The left hand side is towards bottom of garden

Image

Image

Image

Image

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MOD EDIT : I've changed to view the pics in the post. Trim.
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Oct 2015, 10:49

Lee, apologies if I gave the impression I thought you were stupid, that was not my intension. The topic is not something people come across in everyday life so why would anyone know about it. It is a confusing set of rules. The frustration I think is because most people on here are up to speed with it there is an assumed level of familiarity. It's like evrything, once you know how to do it it is easy :lol: .

A stupid person would not be on here asking the necessary questions!

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Oct 2015, 10:58

PearlJammer wrote:Here's the ground with level. The left hand side is towards bottom of garden

Image

Image

Image

Image

Lee


Afraid it is hard to work out the position from these pictures. As you can't use stakes I suggest you pop something like a brick at the highest point on the patio. Then fan out with more bricks, raising them with anything necessary to get them to the point where they are level with the first brick, keep going until you have reached the lowest edge. Then, when you have found the one that needs to be raised the most, measure from the top of that to patio and do the same for your first brick, the difference will tell you what the fall is on the patio.

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Dan0741 » 16 Oct 2015, 11:19

Lee,

One of the things that everyone on this forum likes is photos. There are many reasons for this, but the old adage of a picture speaks a thousand words is true. I know you have given calculations and that's great; but if I were you I would take some photos that give everyone commenting a real appreciation of the space you have available, the relationship between the house and the plot overall and what you or others have added since 1948 if your house is that old. It is without question the case that the combined experience you have available here in a raft of areas is going to exceed that demonstrated by a chat between mates in the pub or even a call to your average planning office.

The frustration is caused by a circular discussion where known (by you) factors are not nailed down and hence contributors are feeling their way in the dark trying to guess your parameters, whether that be planning permission, costs, BRegs or your abilites.

All the relevant factors interrelate and so a change in one area of your overall plan affects another. Read that sentence again. That is what causes the difficulty for contributors. In your overall equation you have a number of constants. Garden size, permissions etc. Get all that nailed down. Now. Because otherwise you will make a mess of the variables within the overall plan. The way I did this was draw a rough sketch on paper, not to scale, not neat, not needing a drawing board, not complicated. I made a rough guess at what I wanted. I then worked through the parameters of regs and planning and sensitivity to neighbours what the mrs was after (sensibly tolerate) and worked out what bits of my overall garden space were available to me, height etc. I then fine tuned each element. Its a bit like booking a holiday, I look at what id like, what I can afford and tune the elements to get a good compromise all round. But you need to recognise the difference between constants and variables. The decision to go with a built structure is good in my view for the reasons already given. But it still gives you an opportunity to feel 'involved' if that's what you want.

In my first post on this topic I said the following;

"I would urge you strongly to formulate your ideas first before you put a spade in the ground. I know this makes me sound like a fruit loop but I have spent considerable time just thinking about things and eventually things become clear in ones mind"

Only you know if you have done this. But clarity of purpose makes all the rest seem like child's play.

Keep it up and follow the advice re level - photos of a spirit level don't mean much! ;)

Dan :D
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 11:22

The 2nd pic is the 6m wide, looks pretty straight. 3rd pic is right to left = front to back, water goes right to left, can just see on the level

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 11:33

Here's a couple more photos from both ends of the garden the two small sheds are going and the large one is being moved. Hope this helps

Lee


Image

Image
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 11:40

Quote


"I would urge you strongly to formulate your ideas first before you put a spade in the ground. I know this makes me sound like a fruit loop but I have spent considerable time just thinking about things and eventually things become clear in ones mind"

Makes perfect sense to me

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 12:34

So how will I go about making a 2 course lintel rise for this cabin?

https://www.simplylogcabins.co.uk/brans ... -felt-p111

If anyone could provide a drawing or pic of the positioning of the lintels I would be grateful

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby 9fingers » 16 Oct 2015, 12:41

Photos have helped me visulaise things more.
I think my next step would be to get a plan drawn on the pooter.
If you don't have 3D then not a problem. A 2d site plan of the whole property to scale and maybe an elevation of the proposed build area with a bit of the house included and a 2.5m above ground line.

Your ground level looks pretty unambiguous so there should be little debate for you or the planners where the 2.5m limit is.

hth

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 12:57

Just looking at lintel prices and it works out about £330 + sand and cement. Would I be better getting a hydraulic or air breaker and putting in a concrete base as I have been quoted under £400 for readymix to fill 5x4m at 150mm

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Dan0741 » 16 Oct 2015, 13:00

Lee - given the height of the shed, the lintels and the patio and the size of the garden, was it your intention to come in under 2.5m overall? If so how were you going to do that?
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 13:04

Dan0741 wrote:Lee - given the height of the shed, the lintels and the patio and the size of the garden, was it your intention to come in under 2.5m overall? If so how were you going to do that?


Yes Dan, the log cabin people said the height is including bearers

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby 9fingers » 16 Oct 2015, 13:10

PearlJammer wrote:So how will I go about making a 2 course lintel rise for this cabin?

https://www.simplylogcabins.co.uk/brans ... -felt-p111

If anyone could provide a drawing or pic of the positioning of the lintels I would be grateful

Lee


Maybe something like this? red strips = lintels , red squares bricks
Spacing depends on size of floor joists which is not stated.
Might need more in the region of the pool table??

Image

Big big thing you seem to be ignoring, is that none of your kits are using pressure treated timber.
Slapping on a surface treatment is not going to stop rot.

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby PearlJammer » 16 Oct 2015, 13:16

I know Bob, I am compromising but it is too expensive for my budget to get a builder in and I can't do it myself. What's the lifespan of these kit cabins if you look after them ie treating them regularly?

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Dan0741 » 16 Oct 2015, 13:17

I'm guessing and those with more experience pls correct me - but I think they mean Bearers yes, your lintels no. Otherwise its quite a short building. The website mentions "solid Foundation Joists" If that is what you mean by bearers and they say that's included in overall height measurement great. They are not saying (I don't think) that the overall height inc your added lintels is 2.48. I think the expectation from them is that you provide a solid base, and they pop it on top. They will not be including your base in height measurements.

Unless your plan is to pop the shed (naked - no lintels) on the patio or to excavate.... :cry: you will be over 2.5m.

Bob - Timber joists for poping this on on the website are treated.
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby 9fingers » 16 Oct 2015, 13:40

PearlJammer wrote:I know Bob, I am compromising but it is too expensive for my budget to get a builder in and I can't do it myself. What's the lifespan of these kit cabins if you look after them ie treating them regularly?

Lee


Who said anything about getting builder in??? With surface only treatment I'd only expect a few years but I have no direct experience but I would never put non pressure treated softwood timber outside.

I can't really understand why these cabin kit people are not offering treated timber at least as an option.

Dan has pointed out their bearers are treated. On the point of the height, maybe you could get away with the floor lifted to get the bearers up off the concrete.

As for not building it yourself, both Dan and Terry were first time shed builders and learned as they went.

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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Oct 2015, 14:41

9fingers wrote:As for not building it yourself, both Dan and Terry were first time shed builders and learned as they went.


Come on Bob, I built a shed, Dan's building a palace!
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Wizard9999 » 16 Oct 2015, 14:46

I tried to cover this off before Lee, but it may have been lost in the flurry of posts. A few questions. Do you get on well with your neighbours? Have you spoken to them a about your plans yet? If so did they raise any concerns? Are they likely to enjoy a game of pool in future?

If the neighbours have no issue with what you build, chances are nobody will every raise it with the council and nobody will know if it is 2.48 or 2.58cm off the ground. But if you do stray over 2.5m you just need to understand the risk is that a really difficult planner will make you take it down and reduce the height.

So if I were you I would work out what you would like, see exactly how high it will be as per Bob's drawing suggestion* and then start the charm offensive with the neighbours if you haven't already done so.

Terry.

* you don't need fancy software to do this I just shrink the rows and columns in Excel to 12 pixels each and use it like a sheet of graph paper to draw things out.
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Re: Log cabin kit or self build?

Postby Rod » 16 Oct 2015, 14:52

It will be the bits you cannot get to IE where it touches the ground that will rot - that's why it pays to keep it off if possible?

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