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Limed Oak Stair - Finished.

This is where we don't want anything but evidence of your finest wood butchering in all its glorious, and photograph laden glory. Bring your finished products or WIP's, we love them all, so long as there's pictures, and plenty of 'em!

Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 26 Aug 2014, 09:20

TheTiddles wrote:
Pinch wrote:
Mike G wrote:Lovely looking stair, Paul, but sorry to be a bore...........it doesn't appear to comply with Building Regulations.


Thanks Mike. Why do you feel it doesn't appear to comply with Building Regulations?


Spindle spacing?


Sorry Aidan, I missed your wee post there :oops:

The spindles comply which are 91mm apart. Like Mike writes, the guideline is the analogy of a 100mm sphere. If I went for 9 spindles instead of 10, their spacings would have been 102mm apart. 8-)
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 26 Aug 2014, 09:30

RogerS wrote:
Pinch wrote:
Mike G wrote:
The 100mm sphere thing applies to the whole stair, not just to the ballusters. You shouldn't be able to pass a 100mm sphere between the treads, for instance. With an open tread stair such as this, there is normally a downstand on the underside of each going to reduce the gap to 99mm or less.


Yes I'm aware of this, but I thought this only applied if children were living in the house?


The Regs are annoyingly ambiguous in this respect and can be interpreted either way.

All stairs which have open risers and are likely to be used by children under 5 years should be constructed so that a 100mm diameter sphere cannot pass through the open risers.

It all hinges on the definition and use of the word 'likely'. Is it likely that it is going to rain tomorrow or is it likely that it is going to rain before Christmas?

Regardless, it's still a lovely piece of work


Cheers Rodger, yes, that's it. Defining the word 'likely' in this case is 'unlikely'. I guess this could be argued with potential visitors who may have children with them, and who might use the stairs. But again in this case, the stair is only serving a mezzanine which is an extension to the study. The study is also a separate room, separated from the main living area.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby RogerS » 26 Aug 2014, 09:38

When I read your last post, Paul, I had visions of your client handing out a Health and Safety leaflet to any visitors with children :lol: :lol:
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 26 Aug 2014, 09:45

RogerS wrote:When I read your last post, Paul, I had visions of your client handing out a Health and Safety leaflet to any visitors with children :lol: :lol:


:lol:
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Mike G » 26 Aug 2014, 10:02

When considering whether a stair complies or not, the Building Inspector isn't going to just have in mind if there are any children currently living in the house. He will consider whether children might live in the house in future, and my experience is that I have never had any open tread stairs pass without having that gap under 100mm. At the very least, I would suggest mentioning this to your customer, and getting him to seek confirmation from the local authority that they are happy with the proposed arrangements........and do this whilst it is still in the workshop so that any alteration is quick, easy and cheap.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Mike G » 26 Aug 2014, 10:10

Pinch wrote:.........The spindles comply which are 91mm apart. Like Mike writes, the guideline is the analogy of a 100mm sphere. If I went for 9 spindles instead of 10, their spacings would have been 102mm apart. 8-)


You'll know this already, but for others....

It isn't the spacing of the spindles which counts, it is the gap between them. This can be affected by their shape, so turned spindles should be spaced carefully to avoid the narrow bits giving a gap bigger than 99mm. If your gaps really would have been 102mm max, then designing a spindle just 1mm larger in diameter would have allowed you to have 9 rather than 10, and thus, possibly, to line everything up like in a cut-string stair.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 26 Aug 2014, 10:20

Mike G wrote:When considering whether a stair complies or not, the Building Inspector isn't going to just have in mind if there are any children currently living in the house. He will consider whether children might live in the house in future, and my experience is that I have never had any open tread stairs pass without having that gap under 100mm. At the very least, I would suggest mentioning this to your customer, and getting him to seek confirmation from the local authority that they are happy with the proposed arrangements........and do this whilst it is still in the workshop so that any alteration is quick, easy and cheap.


Thanks for your advice Mike, but I shall leave everything as it is. My clients are already aware and were satisfied with what I originally proposed.

If you Google 'open tread stairs Uk' and click the images tab, there are countless installed open tread stairs with no additional downstands or tie bars below or between the treads. These projects must have been approved by the Building Inspector.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Mike G » 26 Aug 2014, 10:27

Not necessarily. Plenty of stairs have been replaced as part of works that didn't need BR approval, or that did need it, but didn't actually obtain it. You'll find lots of photos of stairs without any handrails or ballusters at all (ie entirely open, with nothing to prevent anyone falling off the side), and sometimes, even, I have seen such things on TV (Grand Designs and so on).

I am glad that everyone is aware of the situation, and so long as your customer is aware and content, then all is well from your viewpoint.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Andyp » 26 Aug 2014, 11:10

Stairs look great.

Why bother with regulations at all if word's such as "likely" are used. Daft.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Mike G » 26 Aug 2014, 11:27

Andyp wrote:Why bother with regulations at all if word's such as "likely" are used. Daft.


This is a bit boring, but......

The note that Paul quoted isn't actually the Regulation, it is Guidance. The Regulation says "stairs, ladders and ramps shall be designed,constructed and installed as to to be safe blah blah......", and then the Guidance gives one way of achieving that. In other words, if you follow the Guidance, you will be deemed to be compliant with the Regulation. However, if you can justify it, Building Control will accept alternative ways of meeting the same Regulation.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 26 Aug 2014, 17:02

Mike, of course the spacing counts; it's the spacing which determines the gap - no matter what spindle profile is being used. Yes, I could have set the spindles in a fashion similar to a cut-string stair, but the spindles would have been too close for my liking. But of course, this feature is one which will be decided by my client. I only created a panelled string to conceal the screws fastened through the string into the treads - I didn't want to use grain pins, and I like the idea of the panelling in line with the treads. Other solutions would have been to use an alternating wider and thinner spindle (25x25 and 25x100mm perhaps) with cut-out features setting a theme; or possibly even a patterned balustrading of a criss-cross network. But, I have worked to the original drawings which my clients originally agreed on, although I must admit, the drawings don't illustrate a panelled string. If my clients don't like the outer string, I shall work to their instruction and alter accordingly with no issues. This stair is going into a barn conversion serving a mezzanine. The brief was limed oak, small & plain, non intrusive to the room, square posts and spindles with little fuss. I think I'm giving them exactly what they want.

No application has been made through BC for this work. Again, my clients are aware and I did give them the option before I quoted for the work. I guess trust is the key here... I told my client I will design, make and fit the stairs to comply with regs ie; treads including tapered, riser heights, handrail heights, headroom etc etc... and they were happy to proceed with this arrangement. Plus, they have no plans to move for many years, if at all.

I didn't actually quote any notes - Roger did... I simply agreed and I did make a reference as a 'guideline'.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 26 Aug 2014, 17:07

Andyp wrote:Stairs look great.

Why bother with regulations at all if word's such as "likely" are used. Daft.


Cheers Andy 8-)

Like Mike writes; the Guidance is there to potentially invite alternative solutions in terms of design, providing they meet regulation. It's a bit of a swizz really - perhaps the establishment should design better solutions instead of relying on the applicant. Afterall, they are our servants and they send too many jokey emails into the communication networks. :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Rod » 26 Aug 2014, 17:11

There's a photo of a staircase on another forum where they have inserted a horizontal spindle to close the gaps - looks good.

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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 03 Sep 2014, 17:05

Cheers Rod, I'm going with them now. I'll post some piccies up soon 8-)
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 06 Sep 2014, 09:21

Hello Chaps - me again :D

Right then... I've run the downstand thing by my client and I have now made and fitted downstands to all the treads. Here's the stair on the bench and now (I know I said this last week, but I mean 'now' now :lol: ) it is ready for installation. My assistant is lined up for Monday morning. This is going to be quite a challenge because I think we're going to have to go over the top of the mezzanine instead of in the room and up through the stair well. Making all the stair in the shop as I have is going to make this installation very tricky - if indeed it goes in at all :D Hmmm... plan B? I don't have one - just plan A. At the moment, I don't know if we're going to have the room for maneuverability either in the study or on the mezzanine to get this stair in its resting place. I guess I'll soon know :|

The stair is measuring 3.8M in length - flat. Very heavy.
Image

Here's the underside looking down.
Image

And looking up...
Image

The top side looking up...
Image

And looking down...
Image

Here are all the other bits ready, including; spindles, spacers, newel post, caps, handrails etc...
I've also prepared the apron (apart from counter boring for the screw fixings) which will also be the top riser. I've made two blocks fixed to the apron so there will be an adequate gap between the apron and handrail. One of the blocks (as you can see) is where a newel post will hook onto and the other newel post will be hooking over the trimmer joists - if the stair goes in of course :shock:

Image

Image

Image

Wish me luck for Monday! I'm really looking forward to this 8-)

Cheers.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby DaveL » 06 Sep 2014, 09:50

I think 3 shreaded wheat with a couple of wheetabix on top might be called for. Looks good, I was you luck, I hope you have the wiggle room required to get it in to place.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Rod » 06 Sep 2014, 11:27

Hope all goes well on Monday?

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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Andyp » 06 Sep 2014, 11:31

I expect to see photos by Monday lunchtime :)

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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Robert » 06 Sep 2014, 12:25

Very nice. Fingers crossed for you getting it in OK.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 06 Sep 2014, 16:41

DaveL wrote:I think 3 shreaded wheat with a couple of wheetabix on top might be called for. Looks good, I was you luck, I hope you have the wiggle room required to get it in to place.


Cheers Dave. I might have to have a couple of sausage sarnies too with plenty of HP, and lots of cups of tea.

I can see this now... I shall be like Fred Dibnah, rocking to and fro on me feet, flat cap on me 'ed wiv a mug of tea in me 'and, saying, "hmmm by eck lad, let's get this bugger in then." :lol:
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 06 Sep 2014, 16:42

Rod wrote:Hope all goes well on Monday?

Rod


Cheers Rod. I've worked something out below... 8-)
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 06 Sep 2014, 16:43

Andyp wrote:I expect to see photos by Monday lunchtime :)

Hope it goes well


Right you are Sir! Might not be this Monday though :D

Cheers Andy 8-)
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 06 Sep 2014, 16:44

Robert wrote:Very nice. Fingers crossed for you getting it in OK.


Cheers Robert. I've worked something out below. I don't know why I didn't do this before. Mind you, I would have still made the stair as I have.
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby Pinch » 06 Sep 2014, 16:54

I've been playing around with Publisher and inserted one of the stair drawings onto a page. I've then lined around the stair using the 'freedom line' tool and I think I'm going to have to cut the top of the right hand top newel off down to just above the handrail to get this stair in from the mezzanine. Not ideal I know... gluing the newel back on will always expose the joint line - especially as it's going to be limed. The only way around this is to make a parting bead and glue around the newel. Hmmmm....

Here's the red outline of the stair with part newel removed.
Image

And then the outline transferred up onto the mezzanine.
Image

It just about fits, but, there are two purlins to contend with as well.

Another way might be to punch a hole through the roof so the newel can stay uncut.

Hmmmm... :eusa-violin:
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Re: Limed Oak Stair

Postby DaveL » 06 Sep 2014, 17:50

This it getting bit like the Bernard Cribbings song, Right said Fred.
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