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"Universal box joint jig"

This is where we don't want anything but evidence of your finest wood butchering in all its glorious, and photograph laden glory. Bring your finished products or WIP's, we love them all, so long as there's pictures, and plenty of 'em!

Re:

Postby Wizard9999 » 27 Sep 2016, 23:59

TrimTheKing wrote:...when I have my shop done I will definitely be building one as I have projects in mind to utilise finger joints.


So you'll be using 9finger joints then Mark? :lol:

I know, I know, I'm sorry.

Terry.
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby TrimTheKing » 28 Sep 2016, 00:25

Wizard9999 wrote:
TrimTheKing wrote:...when I have my shop done I will definitely be building one as I have projects in mind to utilise finger joints.


So you'll be using 9finger joints then Mark? :lol:

I know, I know, I'm sorry.

Terry.




10 I'm hoping as I've still got all mine and plan to keep it that way...

Cheers
Mark
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby Commander » 28 Sep 2016, 08:56

I have also done my share of looking around and so far the 2 that look worth while is the John Heisz and Matthias Wandel versions, both of which look somewhat complicated, although the complication is often what make these effective and good for repeatably.

I don't have a dado or a router table at this point, so that does limit my options a bit...
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby Wizard9999 » 28 Sep 2016, 09:43

I'm as keen as anyone to see Bob's all singing, all dancing adjustable jig. But if anyone is after just getting some box joints made quickly I think this guy talks sense.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NutwD7B6tmE

I actually made a jig like this. My only issue is that seasonal movement in the components mean it does not maintain the accuracy at the time of manufacture. I am thinking of making a replacement but using those plastic chopping boards from Ikea (that I have seen used as runners) for the finger as that should be completely stable.

Terry.
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby Commander » 29 Sep 2016, 06:05

Wizard9999 wrote:I'm as keen as anyone to see Bob's all singing, all dancing adjustable jig. But if anyone is after just getting some box joints made quickly I think this guy talks sense.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NutwD7B6tmE

I actually made a jig like this. My only issue is that seasonal movement in the components mean it does not maintain the accuracy at the time of manufacture. I am thinking of making a replacement but using those plastic chopping boards from Ikea (that I have seen used as runners) for the finger as that should be completely stable.

Terry.


I can just say wow, so simple and so effective, now for that dado stack... :geek: :?:
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 29 Sep 2016, 12:22

I don't want to over sell the facilities of my proposed jig at this stage. The universality relates to adjustable pin widths.
I want to minimise bespoke metal components to ease the task of others to build it.

It will be simple like the one in the last video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NutwD7B6tmE however I'm not content to work with a single pin size.

So instead of a fixed pin width, it will be adjustable in the range 4mm (because I have a 4mm FTG blade) to 20mm because that is the biggest I think I'll ever want.

Similarly max timber thickness I'll want is 20mm and the minimum practical thickness of 10mm should suit most jobs but I might try and take it lower for tasks like jewellery box insert trays.

A router table version can make use of quite a range of cutters

4mm, 3/16", 5mm, 6mm, 1/4", 7mm 5/16", 8mm, 9mm,3/8", 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, 1/2", 13mm, 14mm,15mm 5/8",16mm 17mm,19mm,3/4" and 20mm

Which should not be much of a restriction really.

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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 02 Oct 2016, 16:30

Here is my early design plan view initially posted to see how easy it is to read the text on the drawing. I'll do a description later in between cooking the dinner etc/

Image

Image

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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby stu » 02 Oct 2016, 19:27

Simple design Bob. I like it. I think the only issue with this type of design is the possibility of error when moving the stock after each cut. I've been watching quite a few of the videos on YouTube and there does seem to be an element of over engineering to some of them, certainly in manufacturing if not in use. I think the best ones are the ones which are easiest/quickest to set up which yours should be.

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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 02 Oct 2016, 19:48

Thanks Stu = well I guess that means you can read the small print.

Got distracted this end with someone elses motor problem etc etc so the description might be tomorrow now.

Bob
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 03 Oct 2016, 11:18

OK here goes the description. Bit of a risk here as nothing has been tried out yet so it might have to change. Up to you if you want to go ahead at this early stage.

Note top centre is the reference face which is the rightmost tooth tips on the blade. This is defined by the blade flange on the saw and the tooth overhang with respect to the saw blade body. Fitting of a dado extends this to the left on my saw. Yours might be the other way round. If so the whole jig will need to be mirror imaged left-right.
The dark blue is the minimum blade width, in my case 4mm FTG blade. I have drawn the length of the blade exposed as 135mm which is the size of a 10" blade protruding 20mm.
The paler blue represents the dado stack

The two orange strips are hard wood/tufnol etc guides to fit into the table slots. A nice sliding fit without shake, waxed for lubrication. These are glued & screwed to the blade guard supports and to a second narrower strip which supports the vertical fence in green.

Attached by studs that can slide in slots (not shown) are two pieces of right angle aluminium acting as guides.
These are shown in different colours in the extremes of their adjustment ranges.
The left hand one travels from 4mm to the right of the reference line shown in light grey and to its rightmost position in pink where it is 20mm from the reference line.

The right hand one is dark grey in the minimum width setting where it abuts the left hand one to form a 4mm wide guide. Slid to the right it is shown in red, to give a guide 20mm wide and 20 mm to the right of the blade.
Matching colured studs and nuts (bristol levers maybe one day) are shown in their extremes of movement.

The guides slide in a rebate machined (routed) in the face of the green fence. in my case this is dimension show as 182 wide

The lefthand guide will have a slot at least 36mm wide and 20mm high cutout to allow the blade to pass through.
In front of the fixed green fence and sliding guides is the pale green sacrifical fence needed as part of the set up process and is subsequently used to give a zero clearance slot to minimise tearout for each specif dimension the jig is set to.

Are you still awake at the back there?

I'll stop now to allow you to digest this and find any errors I've made and take related question before describing the set up process.

Bob
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby stu » 05 Oct 2016, 06:32

Looks straight forward enough.

I'll be interested to see your setting method. The pin spacing is obvious, but I think I have a foolproof way of setting the offset although I'm not certain it will work with your set up. If I have time later I'll try and describe it.

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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 05 Oct 2016, 10:09

Looks like it is just you and me on this one Stu. Shall we get a room! :lol: :lol:
The rest of the interest seems to have dropped off.
I spent yesterday fixing a non-existent fault* on the car so no progress on the write up. I hope to add more today.

Bob

* Blasted car computer said the EGR valve was stuck. Absolute b'stard to access and remove. Turned out it was as free as a bird. Put it all back together and error code went away. Grrr 'kin car computers.
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby Malc2098 » 05 Oct 2016, 10:27

Am watching the UBJJ with interest. I've got no experience of them, nor a 'shop to make or use one in yet, but am still following with interest.

BTW, I have a Jaguar X Type estate; had two EGR's go, the first within 13 months!! The main dealer said I was too gentle with the engine and not getting it hot enough, so it would gum up.

So I turned into a hooligan driver after the 2nd one went and it's been good for 100K miles!

I also use diesel additive now.
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 05 Oct 2016, 10:38

Malc2098 wrote:Am watching the UBJJ with interest. I've got no experience of them, nor a 'shop to make or use one in yet, but am still following with interest.

BTW, I have a Jaguar X Type estate; had two EGR's go, the first within 13 months!! The main dealer said I was too gentle with the engine and not getting it hot enough, so it would gum up.

So I turned into a hooligan driver after the 2nd one went and it's been good for 100K miles!

I also use diesel additive now.


Sounds like an excuse by the dealer. The exhaust gasses are deliberately cooled before going through the EGR. Although an Italian tune up every now and then does little harm.
Fitting new ones (unless under warranty) is them being lazy. A clean out is usually all that is needed. The early ford ones used to stick open. I modified the return spring on mine and it has not stuck for real since.
Sticking open is a pita as 100% of the exhaust goes back in the inlet and the poor thing chokes.
Your engine could well be a variant of mine part of the joint investment by Peugeot and Ford a while back.
Some say the Jag is a mondeo in new clothes but I'd not be so rude! :lol:

Glad you are still interested in the UBJJ - will write more soon. Some rivnuts turned up this morning so I might have to start making something soon. :lol:
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby Malc2098 » 05 Oct 2016, 10:41

It is said that the X type, the Mondeo and the Mazda 6 share 60% of their parts!

Good luck with the jig. Still following!
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 05 Oct 2016, 10:47

Malc2098 wrote:It is said that the X type, the Mondeo and the Mazda 6 share 60% of their parts!

Good luck with the jig. Still following!


Indeed, quite a few car groups use similar/same floor pans on which most of the running gear bolts onto. a great saving for them.
Lots of spares for my car (54 plate Cmax) are common to volvo, peugeot and citroen as well as vehicles through the Ford range and interestingly sold at different prices according the vehicle type quoted.
I quite often stock up on citroen filters when in France and carry a inter model crib sheet in my travel docs.
Tight? me nah but I hate being ripped off!

Bob
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby TrimTheKing » 05 Oct 2016, 10:55

I'm still in the room with you and Stu, Bob… :shock: :oops:

Must admit it's not clear to me how the pin adjustment will work, even after reading your description and looking at the diagram, so I'm not commenting but waiting to see how it progresses and I'm sure it will become clear to me then.

Cheers
Mark
Cheers
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby meccarroll » 05 Oct 2016, 14:54

I'm following this with interest but need to see something visual working to get my head around what you are making. It will be very nice to see the item under construction and even more so demonstrated. Quite an unusual and interesting project.

Mark :text-bravo:
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 05 Oct 2016, 16:02

OK chaps now I have some jobs out of the way, been out to lunch with mates etc it time for the next installment.

Firstly I would suggest you look at this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NutwD7B6tmE mainly about the fit and glue clearances etc.

This is how I plan that the my jig would be used.

Take the width of the boards you want to join and decide the number of pins and sockets you want to use this can be for a symmetrical joint ( each end different) or asymetrical ( both ends the same).
work out the socket width and set the dado to cut that. If you are router based or simply stacking saw blades.
Then you might want to adjust the stock size around your achievable cut width.
Set the blade height to the board thickness or very slightly more - certainly no less. Lock the height adjustment.
Take a pre-prepared backer board of constant thickness and hold on the jig fence and make a cut in a single pass.
Remove the backer set aside to be used as the reference for the socket width.
Set the left hand guide to be slightly more than the socket width.
Take a piece of scrap just less that twice the width of the socket. Make sure the end is cut off square.
Push that against the left hand side of the left hand guide and pass though the saw.
Try the resulting pin in the socket cut in the backer board.
Adjust the left hand guide as required to a fit in the socket that is smooth and has an allowance for glue.
Tighten up the left hand guide, fit the backer over both guide pins and move the right hand guide leftwards as far as it will go. Check the backer slides on and off the pair of pins nicely and is not flexing the pins.
Tighten the right hand guide.
Now you are ready to run a test set of box joint cuts in the conventional way as per most of the video on this type of pin jig and see how they fit and how the pins and sockets are distributed across your chosen stock width.

So far this is all theoretical but I think it should work and hopefully I will not need to change the above.

For those of you intending to make a jig for your router tables then omit the right hand orange guide strip and position the left hand one to suit the slot in your router table.
If like me you don't have any guide slots, push the router fence as far away from the cutter as possible and lock it. Just make the jig fence part of the design and arrange to run that against the surface of the table fence.

That's it for now folks.

Have you noticed? Not a measurement in sight for setting up. Everything is driven by the fit of the pin in the socket.


Bob
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 05 Oct 2016, 17:44

OK lets get into some detail and some sums! :shock:

firstly the assymetric joint like this

Image

Lets say the stock is 80mm wide and each half will have 4 pins and 4 sockets.

80/(4+4) = 10mm so we set the dado to 10mm and each piece gets 4 x 10mm sockets. We also have 7 joints between each piece and say we use 0.05mm clearance (2 thou in old money) so that is 0.35mm of clearances.
therefore the pin size = (80 minus 4 sockets minus 0.35) divided by 4.
Pins come out at 9.9125mm (working to a stupid number of significant digits for now)
top and bottom pieces are the same simply flipped left right
Nice and easy.

Now if we look at the symmetical joint - which I prefer visually, it looks like this.

Image

The top piece has 5 x 10mm sockets and 4 pins. To keep the numbers easy the board is 90mm wide. Sticking with our 0.05mm clearance this time on 8 joints. We have the pin width of 9.9mm.

Now we plug the numbers into the bottom board with 4 sockets at 10mm and five pins at 9.9 plus 8 x clearances of 0.05 we get a board width of 89.9mm. oops!

OK it is only a gnats tadger out but enough to offend an engineer but a couple of swipes with one of those plane things you guys like to use and no one will notice.

So for perfection use the asymetric layout and ignore what it looks like because it will be RIGHT! :lol:

Bob
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2016, 18:55

I'm also sitting quietly in the corner :)

Re your EGR...do you not have one of those gizmo's that plugs into the diagnostic socket and an app on your phone? I've reset many a glitch...saved me £££££
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby 9fingers » 05 Oct 2016, 19:02

RogerS wrote:I'm also sitting quietly in the corner :)

Re your EGR...do you not have one of those gizmo's that plugs into the diagnostic socket and an app on your phone? I've reset many a glitch...saved me £££££


Of course I do Roger. I kept resetting the DTCs and they persisted in returning which is what drove me to investigate. I was still suspicious as on Saturday it had sailed through its Mot emissions test.

As far as the jig is concerned you have two more posts stuffed full of detail to read now!

Bob
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby StevieB » 05 Oct 2016, 19:05

Watching from afar too here - not been posting for a few weeks due to work commitments and jobs at home that are urgent (put up a 30m2 carport, gates and repaired a sash window the window cleaner broke in the last couple of weeks) but am still interested in this jig!

Steve

PS - don't know anything about EGRs!
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"Universal box joint jig"

Postby Rod » 05 Oct 2016, 19:15

Watching with interest Bob but I have a Woodrat which does the joints it's own way.
My saw (Deft T30 - similar to a Laguna) will take a dado but I don't possess one.

Rod
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Re: "Universal box joint jig"

Postby stu » 05 Oct 2016, 22:44

9fingers wrote:OK chaps now I have some jobs out of the way, been out to lunch with mates etc it time for the next installment.

Firstly I would suggest you look at this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NutwD7B6tmE mainly about the fit and glue clearances etc.

This is how I plan that the my jig would be used.

Take the width of the boards you want to join and decide the number of pins and sockets you want to use this can be for a symmetrical joint ( each end different) or asymetrical ( both ends the same).
work out the socket width and set the dado to cut that. If you are router based or simply stacking saw blades.
Then you might want to adjust the stock size around your achievable cut width.
Set the blade height to the board thickness or very slightly more - certainly no less. Lock the height adjustment.
Take a pre-prepared backer board of constant thickness and hold on the jig fence and make a cut in a single pass.
Remove the backer set aside to be used as the reference for the socket width.
Set the left hand guide to be slightly more than the socket width.
Take a piece of scrap just less that twice the width of the socket. Make sure the end is cut off square.
Push that against the left hand side of the left hand guide and pass though the saw.
Try the resulting pin in the socket cut in the backer board.
Adjust the left hand guide as required to a fit in the socket that is smooth and has an allowance for glue.
Tighten up the left hand guide, fit the backer over both guide pins and move the right hand guide leftwards as far as it will go. Check the backer slides on and off the pair of pins nicely and is not flexing the pins.
Tighten the right hand guide.
Now you are ready to run a test set of box joint cuts in the conventional way as per most of the video on this type of pin jig and see how they fit and how the pins and sockets are distributed across your chosen stock width.

So far this is all theoretical but I think it should work and hopefully I will not need to change the above.

For those of you intending to make a jig for your router tables then omit the right hand orange guide strip and position the left hand one to suit the slot in your router table.
If like me you don't have any guide slots, push the router fence as far away from the cutter as possible and lock it. Just make the jig fence part of the design and arrange to run that against the surface of the table fence.

That's it for now folks.

Have you noticed? Not a measurement in sight for setting up. Everything is driven by the fit of the pin in the socket.


Bob

Still with you Bob!

I think there's a more elegant solution to set the width of the pin rather than the set/adjust/set/adjust/try routine.
Take a piece of scrap (setting board), lets say 3 times the width if the cutter/dado, with parallel sides and run it through the jig with the cut out somewhere near the center which will give you a piece with two legs at one end. If you cut one of the 'legs' off and move it across to join the other leg, the difference between the width of the original board and the width of the two legs is the size of the pin that you want less the glueing tolerance or about a piece of paper. Set the left hand side of the left pin on the right hand side of the blade, move it right by the width of the setting board position, then move it left by the width of the two legs plus a piece of paper and it should be in the perfect place. I hope that makes sense, it's late and I'm tired!
9fingers wrote:OK chaps now I have some jobs out of the way, been out to lunch with mates etc it time for the next installment.

Firstly I would suggest you look at this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NutwD7B6tmE mainly about the fit and glue clearances etc.

This is how I plan that the my jig would be used.

Take the width of the boards you want to join and decide the number of pins and sockets you want to use this can be for a symmetrical joint ( each end different) or asymetrical ( both ends the same).
work out the socket width and set the dado to cut that. If you are router based or simply stacking saw blades.
Then you might want to adjust the stock size around your achievable cut width.
Set the blade height to the board thickness or very slightly more - certainly no less. Lock the height adjustment.
Take a pre-prepared backer board of constant thickness and hold on the jig fence and make a cut in a single pass.
Remove the backer set aside to be used as the reference for the socket width.
Set the left hand guide to be slightly more than the socket width.
Take a piece of scrap just less that twice the width of the socket. Make sure the end is cut off square.
Push that against the left hand side of the left hand guide and pass though the saw.
Try the resulting pin in the socket cut in the backer board.
Adjust the left hand guide as required to a fit in the socket that is smooth and has an allowance for glue.
Tighten up the left hand guide, fit the backer over both guide pins and move the right hand guide leftwards as far as it will go. Check the backer slides on and off the pair of pins nicely and is not flexing the pins.
Tighten the right hand guide.
Now you are ready to run a test set of box joint cuts in the conventional way as per most of the video on this type of pin jig and see how they fit and how the pins and sockets are distributed across your chosen stock width.

So far this is all theoretical but I think it should work and hopefully I will not need to change the above.

For those of you intending to make a jig for your router tables then omit the right hand orange guide strip and position the left hand one to suit the slot in your router table.
If like me you don't have any guide slots, push the router fence as far away from the cutter as possible and lock it. Just make the jig fence part of the design and arrange to run that against the surface of the table fence.

That's it for now folks.

Have you noticed? Not a measurement in sight for setting up. Everything is driven by the fit of the pin in the socket.


Bob



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