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Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 09 Oct 2016, 12:25

Mark, is your staff bead already cut to width ? It looks like it. How do you fix it to your template?

Totally agree with you re training on a spindle moulder. Always remember reading that a router table will remove a finger, a spindle moulder a hand.

One forgets the sheer power of these things. I was cutting a tenon on mine one day and I'd not tightened up the timber and backer board properly. I was also hogging out perhaps a bit too much. The inevitable happened as I passed the timber over the cutters. They snatched the timber from out of the clamp with such force that it was fired out of the back of the dust collection port and through the extraction hose finally embedding itself in the plasterboard. These things happen so fast one has no time to react and which is why I get really annoyed with the cavalier advice of a certain poster over on UKW who thinks that you can always get your hands out of the way in time. Downright dangerous advice IMO.
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 13:18

With profiling, applying the moulds etc, most of this work could be done in the same way as already described. The cill however presented me with a bit of a problem. I used a ply template to machine the cill to shape but I still needed to apply groves and a slope for water to run off.

I needed to produce a shape similar to this:

Image

The problem was if I used the template against the ring fence as I already done so far the cill would lay against the fence like below and I'd would need quite a large cutter projection (red):

Image

I decided it was too risky to lay the cill flat on the table and use a template, ring fence and large cutter projection. Instead I made a cradle removed the ply template and moulded the cill vertically on the spindle moulder:

Image

First cuts were made using a rebate block to take out the bulk of waste:

Image

In the below picture you can see the cradle clamped with G cramps, back to the main fence. It's the opposite mould to the cill:

Image

To finish off the slope I set a cutter in a whitehall block at 9 deg and finish the slope off in incremental stages:

Image

Image

Note (not shown in this picture) it is advisable to fix a stabilising piece of stock (the reverse section of the piece cut out) and fix it to the outfield side of the fence to help stabilise the work.

At the time I did these repairs I had to use the cutters I had available and believe it or not we used similar cutters when I first started work.

Now I would use a dedicated cill block such as the one below:

Image

Some cutter blocks that might also be considered are, Left whitehall chip limited block with 9deg cutters and middle variable angle cutter block:

Image

Will continue this later.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 14:01

RogerS wrote:Mark, is your staff bead already cut to width ? It looks like it. How do you fix it to your template?

Totally agree with you re training on a spindle moulder. Always remember reading that a router table will remove a finger, a spindle moulder a hand.

One forgets the sheer power of these things. I was cutting a tenon on mine one day and I'd not tightened up the timber and backer board properly. I was also hogging out perhaps a bit too much. The inevitable happened as I passed the timber over the cutters. They snatched the timber from out of the clamp with such force that it was fired out of the back of the dust collection port and through the extraction hose finally embedding itself in the plasterboard. These things happen so fast one has no time to react and which is why I get really annoyed with the cavalier advice of a certain poster over on UKW who thinks that you can always get your hands out of the way in time. Downright dangerous advice IMO.


RogerS, as you suspect, the staff bead had already been shaped to size and was flat on all edges prior to the moulding being put on. The ply template was temporarily fixed to the stock using panel pins (very common practice). Already mentioned but also important is the use of a gig similar to the one Kirk used with hold down clamps, handles etc. This would enhance safety further and is highly recommended for this type of work (curved work on a spindle moulder).

Thank you for the input Roger.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 09 Oct 2016, 14:58

Image

Oh, that is brilliant...absolutely, bloody brilliant :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap:

I'd never have thought in a million years of doing something like that.
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 09 Oct 2016, 18:09

RogerS wrote:Image

Oh, that is brilliant...absolutely, bloody brilliant :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap:

I'd never have thought in a million years of doing something like that.


I agree--a great setup. I'd probably wax the curved cradle, and also do a few dry runs to make sure there was no snagging as you pushed it through.

Curved work like was probably originally done on a single head molding machine or universal woodworker using a very similar setup, except that the cutterhead would have been horizontal instead of vertical and there probably would have been some kind of power feed involved. I don't have a feeder, but everyone I've talked to that uses their spindle molder for long runs with complex profiles swears by them.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 09 Oct 2016, 18:37

kirkpoore1 wrote:.... I don't have a feeder, but everyone I've talked to that uses their spindle molder for long runs with complex profiles swears by them.

Kirk


I agree....providing you have one fitted in the right place and the right one for your machine. I have one fitted to my spindle moulder but a lot of the time I can't adjust it to be in the right place as it lacks the range.

I also have a baby feed on my router table and that really is a useful add-on especially with thin stock.
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 10 Oct 2016, 08:36

Thank you again Kirk and RogerS for the comments, the mention about power feed is a good one. A power feed unit is a great asset keeps the fingers well away from the cutter block and gives a consistent feed rate and pressure which can improve the finish.

I added a capillary grove on the bottom of the cill on this window but its purpose in this case was to allow a bedding compound to fill the gap and form a seal between the stonework below and wood cill:

I used the same cradle as when adding the slope and just turned the cill around:

Image

The cutter block being used in the photo is a slotted collar type. This type of cutter setup is not now used in professional workshops employing craftsmen. A chip limited safety block would likely be used now or dedicated abide tipped capillary grove cutter block.

Image

Slotted Collar (Not now used in commercial work):

Image

The complet setup breaks down into individual components:

Image

A safety retaining pin located in the slot. Slotted collars were very quick to set up but they have no facility for safety limiters.

Image

Will continue next with marking curves sections and tenoning.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 10 Oct 2016, 10:07

All of the have now been shaped and the beads have had the moulds put on next I put the tenons on the rails.

At this stage I have to make more templates using the router because I need to be able to hold the work in the tenon machine safely so more cradles are need. I make more templates profiled to the radius of the sash rails:

Cradle template marked out with positions of sash components:

Image

Transferring the marking to the stock component:

Image

Checking the cradle position so when the tenon is cut on the rail it will be square to the shoulder of the rail and stile:

Image

If the rial and cradle are not lined up correctly the shoulder would be cut on a slay and the joint would not fit with the stile properly:

Image

When all the marking is complete I position the cradle in position on the Tenon machine and double check the shoulder lines are perpendicular to the hold down carriage. I use a large square titled upright to double check:

Image


Rail secured in tenon machine sliding carriage:

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Close up of front:

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Looking from read:

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I always make test pieces to check fit and this picture shows a small test piece fit on to the end of a rail that has received it's tenons:

Image

Image

NOTE in the above pictures some of the guarding was temporarily removed for the clarity of photos.


Thank you for looking so far.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 10 Oct 2016, 14:39

Excellent! I like the sandwich approach with the notched top piece providing a clamping point.

I have a somewhat different solution to a somewhat similar problem (putting a tenon on the end of a curved workpiece). You may remember the S-shaped piece that exploded on me up thread. Those need a tenon on each end. In addition, they're 3 feet long, so a giant supporting jig is somewhat impractical. Instead I use the pivot hole as a reference point for the jig.

Image
The jig is an inverted T-shaped assembly that gets screwed and clamped to a wooden auxiliary fence on the tenoner table. There is a 3/4" dowel piercing the top part of the inverted T.

Image

Image
To use, the leg, which already has a 20 mm hole bored in it through the center, is slipped onto the dowel. (The difference between the 3/4" dowel and 20 mm hole allows this to be done easily without a significant loss of accuracy.) The leg contacts the end of the table, which gives the second reference point and ensures the proper angle so that the tenon will be perpendicular to the end of the leg.

Image
The usual table clamp holds the leg in place. When I run it through the tenoner, I also have my hand holding the leg to the fence to allow me to feel any trouble.

Image
Here's the resulting tenon, only about 3/4" long

Image

I do have two different jigs because the leg tops and bottoms are not symmetric.

I have made these tenons by hand, on a bandsaw, on the tablesaw with a jig, and on the shaper with a jig, and by far the tenoner is the fastest, most consistent, and most reliable method.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 10 Oct 2016, 14:44

meccarroll wrote:....
I added a capillary grove on the bottom of the cill on this window but its purpose in this case was to allow a bedding compound to fill the gap and form a seal between the stonework below and wood cill:

.....
Mark


I used to do that as well until after revisiting a few windows done in the past found that the bedding compound had come away from adhering to the cementitious stonework and/or if it hadn't then sometimes water had got behind it and because it was blocked had nowhere to go. Now I don't put anything in or if I really have to then some fine lime mortar.
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 11 Oct 2016, 09:02

Kirk,
Thank you for adding the pictures Kirk. Looks like a pretty big tenon machine you have there. I like your approach (pivot point) ensuring the tenon is consistently located. It would have been a slow process by hand.

RogerS,
Not sure why you had the problem with bedding compound, choose the right one and they are supposed to stay flexible. A lime motor would be a good alternative I suppose. Shame the problem occurred though.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 11 Oct 2016, 09:44

meccarroll wrote:....
RogerS,
Not sure why you had the problem with bedding compound, choose the right one and they are supposed to stay flexible. A lime motor would be a good alternative I suppose. Shame the problem occurred though.

Mark


It's not so much the bedding compound (although they do shrink as they dry over time) but the friability of the underlying stonework and/or damp. Of more concern is the bedding compound working only TOO well and water getting trapped behind. I know that ware shouldn't but it only takes a small crack somewhere or other and water goes where water will. At least with lime mortar the structure breathes.

I always try and avoid water traps. For example, when I make up traditional box sashes I will cut 10mm from the bottom of the parting bead so that any water will run down the cill and away as opposed to sitting behind the parting bead and gradually rotting the cill etc over time.


Incidentally, just found this photo of my spindle moulder setup

Image

It's the larger Kity plus modified motor wiring that allows me to reverse the cutter rotation. It also has the tilting function which comes in very handy at times.
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 11 Oct 2016, 10:53

I did all the work I could using the tenon machine, the one tenon I could not complete on it was the meeting rail joint:

Image

This rail is wider than the others as the width of the rail has to extend to fill gap between the parting bead and other rail meeting rail. The meeting rail has a form of bridle joint with tenon. To for the joint I cut the inner cheek of the joint on the tenon machine and used this as a reference face. Using a small template and pencil I marked the rest of joint on the stock. I then made vertical cuts along the pencil lines on the bandsaw to form the tenon:

Image

Image

Removal of the bridle was finished off in the mortice machine. I just set this up by eye to the bandsaw lines, the picture shows the type of setup but when machining a cradle would be used as backing:

Image

After tenoning was complete, rebates and mouldings were put on the stock using a spindle moulder. I used a router with table to put a groove in the lower meeting rail to receive the glass (only the top meeting rail receives a rebate) the lower one has a groove:


Grooving the lower meeting rail on a router table.

Image

Image

That's pretty much all of the curved machining done, all I have to do next is fit the joints together by hand using stopped scribe joints and glue up.

Picture below shows a stile and meeting rail. The pencil line drawn on both rail and stile where a stop scribed joint will be made:

Image


First the mould on the stile (to the right of the pencil line above) is removed. Several cuts are first made to the shoulder line using a tenon saw then the waste is pared off using a chisel:

Image

Image


With the stile prepared I mark the scribe to be cut on the rail:

Image

I use a scrap piece of stock to mark the outline of the scribe on the rail:

Image

Image

Then use a gouge chisel to cut the mould out down to the line:

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Pushing the joint together:

Image

Image

And finally I get to glue and clamp the sashes together:

Image

Note I had to use angled blocks on the end of the sash cramps to hold the joints tight at the shoulders:

Image



Before and after comparison:


Before
Image

After
Image

Image


Not much more to show so will continue later.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 11 Oct 2016, 11:01

RogerS wrote:....
Was it very difficult to revers the motor on your spindle moulder Roger?

Mark


Not really..just a few extra wires and a double-pole double-throw switch.
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 11 Oct 2016, 11:21

Ooops...sorry, Mark...rather than hit Quote I hit Edit and screwed up your original post.

TrimTheKing wrote:Fixed it for you :D


You asked how easy was it to convert the Kity into reverse option. Here are two photographs that show what's involved but for the life of me I am having a very senior moment and cannot remember for the life of me what the actual wiring diagram was. Bob ? Help....................... :oops:

Image

Image
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby 9fingers » 11 Oct 2016, 14:26

Not quite sure how I'm supposed to divine what you did Roger? You would have course drawn a diagram and tucked it inside the terminal box for the benefit of anyone taking over your machine :lol:

But all that is needed should be to configure a switch to make the changes shown in the diagram in your first photo.

Be aware that the motor will only reverse if stopped, then the switch flipped and finally restarted.
If you change the switch with the motor running, nothing will happen or in the case of a capacitor start and run motor, it will likely go bang.
In an ideal world the reversing switch should be linked into the DOL starter to force the motor into the stop state when changing direction.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 11 Oct 2016, 14:29

meccarroll wrote:After tenoning was complete, rebates and mouldings were put on the stock using a spindle moulder. I used a router with table to put a groove in the lower meeting rail to receive the glass (only the top meeting rail receives a rebate) the lower one has a groove:


Grooving the lower meeting rail on a router table.

Image

Image
...

Not much more to show so will continue later.

Mark


I've got a question here, Mark. I've never made a full window, but: This groove on the lower rail is intended to hold the glass. Will it not also hold any water that slides down the glass and gets past the seal/glazing compound/whatever you call it? At that point, the water will soak in and start to rot the wood, just like happened on the original sash. Would it not be better to put the groove at the top, where the water won't be a problem?

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 11 Oct 2016, 14:33

9fingers wrote:Not quite sure how I'm supposed to divine what you did Roger? You would have course drawn a diagram and tucked it inside the terminal box for the benefit of anyone taking over your machine :lol:

But all that is needed should be to configure a switch to make the changes shown in the diagram in your first photo.

Be aware that the motor will only reverse if stopped, then the switch flipped and finally restarted.
If you change the switch with the motor running, nothing will happen or in the case of a capacitor start and run motor, it will likely go bang.
In an ideal world the reversing switch should be linked into the DOL starter to force the motor into the stop state when changing direction.

Bob


:eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: That's brilliant, thanks, Bob. Your comments were enough to jog my memory as to what I did and decipher the drawing :oops:
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 11 Oct 2016, 14:36

Kirk, unless I'm mistaken as to how Mark is making his window, that groove is at the top.

Image

The way that the two meeting rails 'meet' can be a pit for the unwary when making sash windows DAMHIKT !
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 11 Oct 2016, 14:58

RogerS wrote:Kirk, unless I'm mistaken as to how Mark is making his window, that groove is at the top.

Image

The way that the two meeting rails 'meet' can be a pit for the unwary when making sash windows DAMHIKT !


Ah, I misunderstood then. I was thinking "lower" meant the bottom of the sash.

Thanks...

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 12 Oct 2016, 06:46

kirkpoore1 wrote:
RogerS wrote:Kirk, unless I'm mistaken as to how Mark is making his window, that groove is at the top.

Image

The way that the two meeting rails 'meet' can be a pit for the unwary when making sash windows DAMHIKT !


Ah, I misunderstood then. I was thinking "lower" meant the bottom of the sash.

Thanks...

Kirk


Glad you got your answer Kirk. As RogerS has said sash windows can be a bit tricky around the meeting rail. Repairing this bow window was probably one of the most complex machining operations I have had to do so far. I have made quite a few curved headed doors, gates etc but working on this bowed sash window made the machining more complex than usual.

RogerS, thank you for posting both diagrams (window and electrics). I'll take a look at the wiring on my spindle moulder.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 12 Oct 2016, 08:18

Well thank you for following this so far. I know quite a few people using this forum have or are contemplating the purchase of a spindle moulder so I thought posting the thread might be of interest.

I have just got a couple more pictures to tie this up:

Couple of close up pictures of the cill and sash components ready for painting:

Image


Image

Removing rotted sections on site to receive the new cill:

Image

Image

Image


Copious amounts of sealant were used in and around all joints also on the underside of the cill to prevent any moisture penetrating:

Image

All joints were painted and sealed to prevent future rot occurring:

Image

Image



Sorry but I did not take any further pictures of the box sections being re-built.





That all on this thread, thank you to Kirk and RogerS for their contributions (very helpful).
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