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Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

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Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 06 Oct 2016, 16:15

Hi all hope I'm not boring you but have a bit of time on my hands and was looking through some older projects and thought this might be of interest to some on here. I repaired a curved bow window a while back and took quite a few photos as I did the repairs. Hear it is before the work started:

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It looked to have been repaired before but had not held up to well as you can see. I put in a price and managed to get the work so went along to investigate and remove the sashes. The glass in the sashes was curved so I needed to take the sashes out so I could remove the glass and reuse it.

When I removed the sashes it was apparent that most of the bottom of the window frame and sashes were completely rotten so I made a complete template (You can just see it inside the window) of the inner curve of the window, removed the sashes and boarded up the sash openings. First though I took measurements of all the section sizes of the window and took pictures of the tape held against the sections. I do this because if I have a query with my written measurements I can always confirm with the pictures taken:

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Recording pictures of section sizes:

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Picture showing the extent of repairs needed:

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A line up of three sashes to far got to repair:

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Well that was the easy bit pulling the window apart. The next part was a bit more difficult, figuring out how to machine all the curved parts, even deciding how to set it out for machining worked out to be more time consuming than I had anticipated. Anyway I had my template of the window's inner curved line so started there.

Template laying on ply rod.

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Once I have the dimensions of the windows, inner curve, I draw an arc on the ply rod using a slip of wood with a pin in one end centred along the diameter of the window and a pencil which has been inserted in a hole at the radius:

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Once I had the dimensions marked on the ply rod I could order the wood needed. I started to make templates out of ply for each section of window I needed to replace. I had to make a template for each component as each had a different radius and consequently a larger or smaller curved template was needed for each:

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Above picture shows a router being used to cut the inner curve of the cill template on a piece of ply and below the ouster curve being profiled on the same piece of ply.
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To create correct curve on the templates, I fix a piece of ply to the base of a router then place the router cutter at the correct radius position on the ply rod, then I fix the other end of the ply to the centre of the rod with a screw. The router then just pivoted around the screw position at the correct radius.

Once I had my ply templates cut I used them to mark out and bandsaw the various sections:

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note I left some waste on as I was going to clean up the sections to their actual size on the spindle moulder later:
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And here is the pile of curved sections and templates used in the repairs. the straight sections such as stiles and beads were not included in this picture but there were just as many:

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Hope you don't mind if I leave it hear for the moment and update later.

Thank you for looking so far.

Mark
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 06 Oct 2016, 17:39

Excellent, Mark. :eusa-clap: Looking forward to this one.
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 Oct 2016, 18:08

RogerS wrote:Excellent, Mark. :eusa-clap: Looking forward to this one.


Wot he said!

Cheers
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 06 Oct 2016, 19:25

Thank you for the comments chaps.
I did not manage to take pictures of every aspect of the work done but hope the pictures on the spindle moulder and tenoner will be of sufficient interest.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 06 Oct 2016, 20:20

Well at this stage I have marked out a rod to work from, made my ply templates, machined and bandsawed my stock to rough shape and so now I have to start refining the rough band sawn stock into shape. For this I use the spindle moulder.


This is the little spindle moulder I use for all the machining, it's a kity 623 spindle moulder, small but capable. In this picture only the straight guard is in place all the rest of the guarding has been removed
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What I do next is take the plywood template and pin it onto the section of wood to be shaped (the template is used as a guide between the cutter block, ring fence and stock to be moulded). I then set up a bonnet guard in place of the straight fence on the spindle moulder. At this stage I am nearly ready to start shaping:

Notice the black lines showing either side of the plywood template, this is the stock that needs to be machined and removed by the spindle moulder:

Image

Before machining I first set the spindle block and ring fence to align directly above each other vertically. The bonnet guard (Yellow) is set to enclose the cutters as much as possible but to still allow machining and visible feeding of the stock.

Notice the cutter block cuts directly below and in line with the ring fence, just below the ply template.
Image

Will continue tomorrow.

Any comments are welcome.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 07 Oct 2016, 03:38

Mark:

Looks like a good setup. I don't have have a ring fence on my spindle molder (aka shaper, in my neck of the woods), so I use rub collars. Also, I will often clamp the work and the pattern in a jig to keep my hands farther away from the spindle. Here is an example:
Image
In this case I have a couple of Destaco clamps holding the pattern and piece down, and the jig extends under the workpiece so that the unit is clamped together. I have a purpose built guard box to keep my hands further away and also give my dust collector a fighting chance and the chips. The lid is flipped back so you can see the work.

I'm sure you also know to arrange as much of your cutting as possible to reduce tearout. You can't always avoid it, like on these rounded shapes, but you can minimize it. Or you can go really old school and get a double spindle shaper and have two cutterheads going in opposite directions. :)

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 07 Oct 2016, 09:16

kirkpoore1 wrote:Mark:

Looks like a good setup. I don't have have a ring fence on my spindle molder (aka shaper, in my neck of the woods), so I use rub collars. Also, I will often clamp the work and the pattern in a jig to keep my hands farther away from the spindle. Here is an example:
Image
In this case I have a couple of Destaco clamps holding the pattern and piece down, and the jig extends under the workpiece so that the unit is clamped together. I have a purpose built guard box to keep my hands further away and also give my dust collector a fighting chance and the chips. The lid is flipped back so you can see the work.

I'm sure you also know to arrange as much of your cutting as possible to reduce tearout. You can't always avoid it, like on these rounded shapes, but you can minimize it. Or you can go really old school and get a double spindle shaper and have two cutterheads going in opposite directions. :)

Kirk


Thats a good example of how to use a jig and template on a spindle moulder (shaper) Kirk. I have to admit I did not use a jig with holding devices while machining when I did these repairs but using one would have further improved safety.

When I purchased my spindle moulder it came with ring fences but no bonnet guard so I made one using thin sheet material from an old discarded washing machine. All the edges were just folded over and bashed down with a hammer. I simply bent the sheet around my top guard and it kept its shape. I then cut slots in the curved guards to make them adjustable and welded bolts with wing nuts to the centre guard for adjustment. There is a dust outlet on top to allow chip extraction. It works really well and I can adjust the ring fence and guards, in or out and up or down to suite my template, stock height and depth of cut. I know what you mean about tear out Kirk. With the ring fence I can and do feed the stock in several times taking any excess off gradually which helps reduce tear out considerably.

Image

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby 9fingers » 07 Oct 2016, 10:06

I have a similar looking spindle liberated from an early kity combi (CK26) but not used a ring fence before
I presume the radius of the ring has to be greater than the radius of block plus cutter so that the profile remains true to the template.

Most template work I've done to date has been on the router table but one of these days I'll want to do something beefier and learning about a ring fence would be good.

As I have metal machining facilities I could set a 30mm bearing in an alloy or mdf disc to act in the same way as Kirk's rub disc to match various blocks I have.
Could be a safe(r) way of using the French cutters that I have for curved work too.

Bob
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 07 Oct 2016, 13:08

9fingers wrote:I have a similar looking spindle liberated from an early kity combi (CK26) but not used a ring fence before
I presume the radius of the ring has to be greater than the radius of block plus cutter so that the profile remains true to the template.
Bob


I'd say the answer to the above analogy is essentially correct Bob.

I have taken a few closer pictures of my ring fence which should help explain.

First a top view of a cutter block in the spindle moulder:

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Next is a view of the ring fence and support column:

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By slackening the knob that fastens the ring fence to the column it can slide in one out also up and down.

The base of the column has a threaded knob which screws into a rivnut located in the spindle moulder table and a steel bar fits into a hole the other end of the base. Once tightened it's pretty secure and can't move:

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This is the rig fence in place before setting it up:

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Looking from above Bob as you suspected the ring fence is larger than the cutter block below it. It is also not a perfect circle. This allows several incremental cuts to be made using the ring fence in one position:

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You have probably picked up that the ring has three marks on it, two black and one red. There will be a point on the ring that if the plywood template guide if fed in at that point no stock will be removed, first black mark. And secondly the point on the ring that maximum stock will be removed will be the red mark.

To set the ring fence to work correctly with the marks and cutter block I use a square to align the maximum projection of cutter block to line up with the red mark, then tighten the adjusting knob:

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This is the maximum cutting point on the ring fence so if I feed my template in on this point all of the stock will be removed in line with the edge of the template in one pass:

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If I want to make two passes and increment the removal of stock I would make my first pass running the ply template on the black line:

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At this point the cutter is further away from the edge of the ring fence so less stock is removed:

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If I need more adjustment I can move the ring fence in or out laterally (vertically to if required):

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The bonnet guard can also be opened for larger pieces or closed for smaller pieces:

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Some close ups of the bonnet guard and column:

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If anyone is planning on making a ring fence assembly the above might be food for thought. Mine could do with a bit more refinement but it does work very well as is.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby 9fingers » 07 Oct 2016, 13:19

Mark,
Thank you so much for the detailed reply and all the photos.
Excellent point about the incremental cuts and using the marks.

Cheers
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby RogerS » 07 Oct 2016, 14:50

Are you feeding that through freehand as in the picture without any handles a la Kirk? That would scare me s**tless. How do you feed the last few inches through while all the time keeping the pressure against the cutter block and keeping your fingers and hands out of harms way ?
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby Robert » 07 Oct 2016, 18:04

Interesting. I feel I know a lot more about spindle moulders now.

Still think they are scary things though :)
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 07 Oct 2016, 18:26

RogerS wrote:Are you feeding that through freehand as in the picture without any handles a la Kirk? That would scare me s**tless. How do you feed the last few inches through while all the time keeping the pressure against the cutter block and keeping your fingers and hands out of harms way ?


Roger, if I may reply before Mark, you shift your hands as you go. If, for example, I'm rounding corners on a piece of curved stock, I won't use a pattern or jig, just a rub collar sized to the inner radius of the cutter. As I cut, I will move the first hand past the cutter after a few inches of rounding, and then move the back hand past the cutter before cutting the last few inches. This is not really a big deal on small cuts. For a tall straight cut, though, I much prefer the security of the holding jig.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 08 Oct 2016, 07:31

kirkpoore1 wrote:
RogerS wrote:Are you feeding that through freehand as in the picture without any handles a la Kirk? That would scare me s**tless. How do you feed the last few inches through while all the time keeping the pressure against the cutter block and keeping your fingers and hands out of harms way ?


Roger, if I may reply before Mark, you shift your hands as you go. If, for example, I'm rounding corners on a piece of curved stock, I won't use a pattern or jig, just a rub collar sized to the inner radius of the cutter. As I cut, I will move the first hand past the cutter after a few inches of rounding, and then move the back hand past the cutter before cutting the last few inches. This is not really a big deal on small cuts. For a tall straight cut, though, I much prefer the security of the holding jig.

Kirk



RogerS and Kirk

Thank you to both of you first RogerS for raising the question and secondly Kirk for answering.

I think I would agree with Kirk that the degree of precaution depends upon the risk involved.


At the time I made the repairs I used the template as a means of passing the stock past the cutter block. The picture below is an example of how I held the template. I first passed the template on the right (both hands to the right of the cutter block) then when the template passed about 300mm past the cutter I would pass my left hand over to hold the template as in the picture. And as Kirk has said with about 300mm left I would finish the cut by passing my right hand over. At no time would my hands be directly in front of the cutter.

Image


Now I tend to use gripper handles for improved safety, a gig with holding handles (similar to Kirk's above) would be another excellent means of improving safety further.

An example of handles I used to hold a template and on a more recent project:

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Something to mention at this stage is the ply template or gig should ideally be designed to extend sufficiently beyond the stock to allow a lead on and off the ring fence prior to the cutter engaging the timber. The lead on and off acts as a safety area preventing any possibility of the cutter snatching the stock.

Image

Thank you for your comments keep them coming :eusa-clap:

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 08 Oct 2016, 23:59

I'm not trying to hijack Mark's post, but I was making chair legs today like I was doing in the picture above, and got a big reminder of the risk of blowout you take when cutting "against" the grain:

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This piece is actually upside down, and I was actually cutting from left to right. The shaper cutter grabbed the work when I was a little past the central round section and tore half of it away. Fortunately I had this in the clamping jig so there was no further damage to me (or my pa--uh, trousers, to use your preferred dialect). The wood is some variety of elm, and I haven't used it before. I'm testing it out to see if it has good crosslinked grain and is stronger than the sycamore I'm already using. So far, the results aren't promising, since this blowout happened on one of five elm blanks but none of 21 sycamore blanks. Oh well.

Here's the whole piece:
Image
The split across the middle was me seeing how strong the remains were after the blow up.

Here's the ones that worked:
Image

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 04:56

kirkpoore1 wrote:I'm not trying to hijack Mark's post, but I was making chair legs today like I was doing in the picture above, and got a big reminder of the risk of blowout you take when cutting "against" the grain:

Image
This piece is actually upside down, and I was actually cutting from left to right.
Kirk


Kirk, please do keep adding comments and pictures. It's good to have the input and adds balance to the thread.

One question for you, Kirk, when you set your shaper and rub collars is the depth of cut pre set like a router cutter with bearing guide or can you make any adjustment to depth of cut in any way?

Many thank's Mark :text-coolphotos:
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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 05:45

Robert wrote:Interesting. I feel I know a lot more about spindle moulders now.

Still think they are scary things though :)


The spindle moulder is one of the machines I use most and probably find most adaptable in the work I do. A lot of people would prefere to use a router set in a table to emulate a spindle moulder and depending on the work you do can be used as a substitute, I'd find one too limiting though.

I have been very fortunate in that I was taught both at college and work how to use a spindle moulder (few years ago now) and some processes can be a bit tricky. It's better to obtain some tuition before making a purchase or using one though (IMHO).

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 09 Oct 2016, 05:57

meccarroll wrote:Kirk, please do keep adding comments and pictures. It's good to have the input and adds balance to the thread.

One question for you, Kirk, when you set your shaper and rub collars is the depth of cut pre set like a router cutter with bearing guide or can you make any adjustment to depth of cut in any way?

Many thank's Mark :text-coolphotos:


Mark:

I'm using a fixed, 3 wing cutter. The rub collar is the same diameter as the cutting circle and there is no adjustment. To make it adjustable I'd have to do something like using a lock edge collar setup (where knife projection can be modified), or use a different diameter rub collar, or modify my pattern. As a practical matter, I can move the pattern around on the workpiece to get a change in the cut depth--it all depends on where I clamp it.

On the other hand, I don't need to be nearly as careful as you do with your ring guard to keep the cut point at the same location. So there's weaknesses to every method, I guess.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 06:03

Well I think it's pretty clear at this stage how I have set up and machined my components to shape so I'll just show a couple of pictures of some staff bead which basically used the same process as already described above, this is the stage I start to profile the mouldings and rebates:

Image

Close up of the ring fence, cutter, temp[late and bead being machined:

Image

The finished staff bead:

Image

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 09 Oct 2016, 06:05

meccarroll wrote:The spindle moulder is one of the machines I use most and probably find most adaptable in the work I do. A lot of people would prefere to use a router set in a table to emulate a spindle moulder and depending on the work you do can be used as a substitute, I'd find one too limiting though.

I have been very fortunate in that I was taught both at college and work how to use a spindle moulder (few years ago now) and some processes can be a bit tricky. It's better to obtain some tuition before making a purchase or using one though (IMHO).

Mark


That's good that you had some classes. I'm sure I've missed some good techniques and probably have some safety shortcomings because I'm self-taught (and read a couple of books). I did start on a fairly small shaper, though, which was less intimidating.

A spindle molder will move a lot more wood a lot faster than any router. Mine is only a 1 hp machine, but it will cut more wood on one pass than you can do with a 3 hp router in a table. With proper precautions, it's extremely versatile.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby kirkpoore1 » 09 Oct 2016, 06:09

meccarroll wrote:Well I think it's pretty clear at this stage how I have set up and machined my components to shape so I'll just show a couple of pictures of some staff bead which basically used the same process as already described above, this is the stage I start to profile the mouldings and rebates:

Image

Close up of the ring fence, cutter, temp[late and bead being machined:

Image

The finished staff bead:

Image

Mark


Nice. That points to why I need a bigger motor on my shaper. I have an insert head (in fact it came with the machine), but I've never used it because it really takes more power than I have. This same type of machine was later sold with 3 hp and even 5 hp motors, but mine was an early model (1946) and just came with 1hp.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 06:17

kirkpoore1 wrote:
On the other hand, I don't need to be nearly as careful as you do with your ring guard to keep the cut point at the same location. So there's weaknesses to every method, I guess.

Kirk


Thank you for your reply Kirk, as you point out, strengths and weaknesses in both methods. I guess it would be nice to have both setup's. I have often seen sets of bearing guides advertised (same as rub collars I suspect) but did not realise until your reply, why you might need more than one :eusa-doh:

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 07:09

kirkpoore1 wrote:
That's good that you had some classes. I'm sure I've missed some good techniques and probably have some safety shortcomings because I'm self-taught (and read a couple of books). I did start on a fairly small shaper, though, which was less intimidating.

Kirk


That was a number of years ago Kirk, H&Safety, spindle practices and tooling have moved on a fair bit since I first started in woodwork.

At the time I made the repairs I was using some pretty outdated cutter blocks and tooling which would not now be used in a professional workshop employing people. These are still used by some sole traders and hobby woodworkers but are none the less outdated in safety terms today.

A few examples below:

Old style whitehall cutter block with cutters. For health and safety reasons you can not now use the below block if you have employees:

Image

These cutter blocks use a wedge which had a nut which when tightened forced the cutter tight against the block and held it in place by friction:

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Cutter held in place by wedge:

Image

Ideally the cutter would have been held fully in place by the wedge as in this picture:

Image


Custom cutters were often produced in shop or adapted from a previous cutter and some were ground ridiculously small as in this picture:

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If a cutter this small was used it would only be held in the tip of the wedge:

Image

Using small cutters was not very good practice because when the keyed wedge was tightened it would force the key to deform. The back of the key would be forced to fill the gap where no cutter was. The next time this block was used the key would be less effective at holding a cutter:

Image

Although these cutter blocks were relatively safe if used correctly there was still a remote possibility of the cutter flying during use so now their use has been superseded by safety chip limited cutter blocks:





Safety Chip limited cutter block and cutters:

Image

The cutters in this type of block are held in by pins (not just friction) and they are paired with a cutter limiter. This type of design helps to prevent kickback, snatch and other types of problems while machining.

Image

Close up of block showing pins and key wedge

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Cutters and limiters with pin holes for secure location in the block:

Image

Means of tightening the cutters in the block:

Image

Thank you for looking so far, will continue later with machining the cill on the spindle.

Please add comment or any pictures you have.

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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby tyke » 09 Oct 2016, 10:15

Mark
Thanks for a very imformative post. I have a much better appreciation of how a spindle moulder works and can also now see why training is a must given the care needed to set it up correctly.
Andy


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Re: Curved woodwork on a spindle moulder

Postby meccarroll » 09 Oct 2016, 12:10

tyke wrote:Mark
Thanks for a very imformative post. I have a much better appreciation of how a spindle moulder works and can also now see why training is a must given the care needed to set it up correctly.
Andy


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Thank you for the comment Andy.

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