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Très (tray!) difficile ?

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Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Oct 2016, 07:17

Not really :D

Several years ago I went on a traditional (using hide glue) veneering course at John Lloyds'. One of the items we worked on was some marquetry infill and stringing and resulted in this. (Interesting to note the difference in colorimetry between using and not using a flash).

Side One
Image

Image

Side Two
Image

And at the time I thought that it could make a nice tray and so it lay wrapped up for several years until now.

So first question....which side to make the top ? Side One or Two ?

Peter Sefton also runs/ran a veneering course but using modern glues and one of the outputs from his course is also a tray with laminated curved handles. Never one to ignore a good idea, I've also decided to make the handles using laminated constructional veneer. Peter kindly gave me a set of formers and AndyP very kindly sent me some Walnut constructional veneer. I fancy a handle made from contrasting layers and so for pale wood I'll bandsaw some Bird's Eye Maple.

And so without further ado and while I'm waiting to get me rivets and snaps for the garden fork off we go.
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby meccarroll » 25 Oct 2016, 08:01

First picture for me Roger.

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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Wizard9999 » 25 Oct 2016, 09:25

meccarroll wrote:First picture for me Roger.

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:text-+1:
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Robert » 25 Oct 2016, 09:42

Think I'd pick side 2.

The edge banding not matching on one end of the elaborate side would annoy me too much :)
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Oct 2016, 09:53

Robert wrote:Think I'd pick side 2.

The edge banding not matching on one end of the elaborate side would annoy me too much :)


RH side ? I'd forgotten about that ;)
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Andyp » 25 Oct 2016, 10:27

What is the point of doing the inlay if you are never going to see it? Side One, show it off.
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Malc2098 » 25 Oct 2016, 12:08

:text-+1:
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Oct 2016, 12:13

Here is the former shape.

Image

The immediate question I need to answer is how are the ends going to be fixed. I like to avoid using screws as much as possible. Epoxy would probably be strong enough but I'm not sure of the integrity of the hide glue'd veneer. I also need a lip front and back to stop a plate sliding off. So if I make the lips tall enough (but not too tall) then I should be able to cut a small slot and slide the handle ends in. Question is - what wood to use - and I need to make a decision as to which way up.

I think I will simply veneer the two ends.

And the results of the jury are just in. Side One it is. I've got some offcuts of flame mahogany and I rather fancy giving these a bit of 'zing'. The trouble with flame mahogany is it can develop hidden shakes. And as I type this I find my mind drifting a bit and thinking that maybe a better way would be to use a Forstner bit and drill vertical holes at each handle end and through the base and then glue in a contrasting dowel. Mmmm..decisions, decisions.

OK...while I'm mulling that, I want the two edge strips to be reasonably thin but not so thin that they lose structural integrity. I also want to run a slight rebate down the length to engage with the edge of the base. Easily done on the router table and no need to cut too deep. This rebate is only about 1mm deep.

Image

At this point I've kept the thickness quite thick at around 12mm to make it easier and stronger to go past the router groover. But now it's time to thin it down a little.

My small thicknesser can go down to 5mm which is plenty thin enough but passing the flame mahogany through unsupported is almost guaranteed to get it picked up by the cutters and shredded. So the trick is to give it some support.

Image

Damn handy, these glue guns.

You can actually see a small shake in this photo. I'll have to see how it develops as there looks to be some great flame in there. Also I can just keep taking off a whisker at a time until the thickness looks right when up against the tray base.

Image

OK..after a few passes, the shakes are starting to become more obvious. I'm pretty happy with the thickness and so I'll leave it there. You can see the shakes here...

Image

and on the opposite side ....

Image

which I'm not too happy about as it looks as if a small triangular piece could fall of the end quite easily. Since that forms part of the slot to hold the handle, I think I may investigate the dowel further.

OK...time for the handles. Two options - Handle 1 which has four laminates

Image

and Handle 2 which has five and is symmetrical therefore.

Image

I prefer Handle 2 bt what does the team think ?
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Andyp » 25 Oct 2016, 13:02

Handle 2
and how about this for fixing

Image

Screwed in then plugged, in your case with the wood from the 2nd layer from the top in the laminate.
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Oct 2016, 13:22

Andyp wrote:Handle 2
and how about this for fixing

Image

Screwed in then plugged, in your case with the wood from the 2nd layer from the top in the laminate.


I like that idea. It's a possibility. Not sure what you mean in the italics ?
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Andyp » 25 Oct 2016, 13:46

Sorry if not making sense, heavy cold and very tired.
I used a light coloured plug for contrast of an all walnut handle. The top layer of your handle is, I think, the lighter colour so use the darker colour for the plug.
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Oct 2016, 14:00

Andyp wrote:Sorry if not making sense, heavy cold and very tired.
I used a light coloured plug for contrast of an all walnut handle. The top layer of your handle is, I think, the lighter colour so use the darker colour for the plug.


:text-goodpost:
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Malc2098 » 25 Oct 2016, 14:01

Handle 2, please. I'd go symmetrical every time!
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby meccarroll » 26 Oct 2016, 06:53

Laminate build up number two (With contrasting plugs) would look nice IMHO.

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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 03 Nov 2016, 13:44

Really making heavy going of this as I seem to be getting sidetracked all the time. Took an age to get some decent home-cut birds eye maple and even now I'm not 100% happy with the ones I have but I think they should be OK. I did look at Crispin's website at one point but couldn't see much in the way of light coloured constructional veneer.

Got everything out to glue up only to discover that my cold press veneer glue had separated out and was fit for the bin. Grrrr.....OK, tomorrow then. Back t'garden fork.
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2016, 18:58

Applied some brown plasticky parcel tape to the formers, glued it all up making sure I had a good coating on all sides then made a nice sticky sandwich, stuck it in the formers and applied the cramps. The first one just didn't want to go together properly and I ended up applying some serious force to make sure the former was tight and squeezing the laminates together.

Then I realised that I'd not lined up the ends of the formers :oops: A quick de-clamp, adjust the formers and they went together - sweet as anything. Little bit over-zealous with the excess width of the veneers.

Image

Image

Screwed the two parts of the former together as are going to run it through the planer and thicknesser to dimension the handles down to 20mm.

Image

Planed one side down OK but while running the other side through the thicknesser....BANG. I'd carelessly put the bloody screw in at an angle. (That gapping in the laminate is outside the tray width and will be cut off. It's full of glue anyway !)

Image

It doesn't take much to trash a virtually new pair of planer blades :evil:

Image

Finally thicknessed them down
Image

A little bit of glue on the surface but the critical thing is to sand it all off...even when you think you've done it, you probably haven't taken enough off and that will show through the finish.

Image

I was going to mix up the stain for the flame mahogany side cheeks but realised that I'd forgotten the mix ratio and so while my request for the right mix ratio is out there pending a reply, I decided to sand off whatever finish was on there (I suspect it might be shellac) as I want a good resilient hard-wearing coat on the tray and intend to use Rustins' Plastic Coating ( a horrible name for a very good product...their marketing/product people should be shot coming up with a naff name like that). As the sanding progressed I found that there were some areas that simply didn't want to 'sand out' as it were.

You can see the darker areas here

Image

I know what it is..I think that it is hide glue that has bled through pores in the veneer and so I'm stuck with it unfortunately. Let's just hope that the Coating will blend the difference and make it not so noticeable.

So what else to do while waiting for the mix ratio ?...

The veneer on the end cheeks. Found some flame mahogany veneer.

Image

To be honest, I don't think that it's going to be that striking as you really need a large area for the flame mahogany to standout but since the cheeks down the long side are flame, it makes sense to stick with it. The big question was how to hold the veneer on while the glue was going off. Trying to clamp and apply even pressure I thought was probably asking a bit much and then I remembered I had some veneer tape. Certainly worth having a go and if it doesn't work ...well, it's an easy job to sand off the veneer and try a different approach.

Image
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Andyp » 05 Nov 2016, 19:58

Shame about the blades Roger. One this thing to pack I suppose. As for clamping I did my cold forming in the front jaws of the vice, plenty of clamping pressure.

Looking good so far. Have you decided on the fixing method?
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Malc2098 » 05 Nov 2016, 22:03

Nice job, Roger. Shame about the screw.

The veneer press took me straight back to 1967, when I made salad servers at school for A Level WWork using exactly the same method!
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 08 Nov 2016, 16:27

Andyp wrote:....

Looking good so far. Have you decided on the fixing method?


I'll probably cheat and run a small screw through from underneath. If I go in from the top then by the time I've countersunk for the screw and then allowed depth for the plug, it doesn't leave much meat for security.
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby meccarroll » 25 Nov 2016, 17:54

Good idea keeping the laminates in the former while you thickness them. That idea could be adopted for a lot of other similar situations too. Real shame about the planer blades but we have all done it at some time or another.

Look forward to seeing the end result.

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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Nov 2016, 18:16

So am I looking forward to the end result. Only one wee problem....LOML needs massive amounts of space and working area for some essential gardening activity and so I have temporarily given up my workshop to her.

Once the pressure has eased then hopefully I'll be back inside to finish the tray and the garden fork.

Before packing up the workshop (and house) and moving off to pastures new.
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Andyp » 25 Nov 2016, 18:36

I don't think you mentioned anything about a workshop in the new place. Is there one ready to move into?
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Nov 2016, 18:42

Andyp wrote:I don't think you mentioned anything about a workshop in the new place. Is there one ready to move into?


A garage !
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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby Rod » 26 Nov 2016, 00:25

Are you moving far?
I noticed on another forum you were asking about land registration and fishing rights?

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Re: Très (tray!) difficile ?

Postby RogerS » 26 Nov 2016, 06:38

Rod wrote:Are you moving far?
I noticed on another forum you were asking about land registration and fishing rights?

Rod



Yes, I'm leaving soft Southerners like Trim far behind :lol: Cumbria/Northumberland border.
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