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The Orangerie - duff glass-fibre-coating REPAIRED

This is where we don't want anything but evidence of your finest wood butchering in all its glorious, and photograph laden glory. Bring your finished products or WIP's, we love them all, so long as there's pictures, and plenty of 'em!

Re: The Orangerie - glulams arriving today

Postby RogerS » 03 Sep 2018, 13:24

9fingers wrote:.....
I've not done a detailed analysis but I'd have thought that fitting your OSB from the centre towards each end that the 600 centres would be ideal and leaves any unusual cutting to the ends which are non standard pitch anyway.

Lovely sunny say down south again and no rain forecast for the next 2 weeks but I won't mention that. :lol:

Bob


Not when your OSB is 1220 x 2440 !
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Re: The Orangerie - glulams arriving today

Postby 9fingers » 03 Sep 2018, 13:29

RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:.....
I've not done a detailed analysis but I'd have thought that fitting your OSB from the centre towards each end that the 600 centres would be ideal and leaves any unusual cutting to the ends which are non standard pitch anyway.

Lovely sunny say down south again and no rain forecast for the next 2 weeks but I won't mention that. :lol:

Bob


Not when your OSB is 1220 x 2440 !


The waste is only going to be 40 mm or 1.6% per sheet :D

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Re: The Orangerie - glulams arriving today

Postby RogerS » 03 Sep 2018, 14:27

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:.....
I've not done a detailed analysis but I'd have thought that fitting your OSB from the centre towards each end that the 600 centres would be ideal and leaves any unusual cutting to the ends which are non standard pitch anyway.

Lovely sunny say down south again and no rain forecast for the next 2 weeks but I won't mention that. :lol:

Bob


Not when your OSB is 1220 x 2440 !


The waste is only going to be 40 mm or 1.6% per sheet :D

Bob


It's the time that's the issue. I hate working with OSB at the best of times. Now I've got to make a lot more extra cuts. Grovelling about on the ground. Faffing about getting the track lined up correctly.
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Re: The Orangerie - glulams arriving today

Postby will1983 » 03 Sep 2018, 14:51

Clamp a scrap timber to the bottom of your saw and use it as a fence against the edge of the OSB board.
If you stack a few sheets together you can cut them all together and no tracks required.
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Re: The Orangerie - glulams arriving today

Postby RogerS » 03 Sep 2018, 17:50

will1983 wrote:Clamp a scrap timber to the bottom of your saw and use it as a fence against the edge of the OSB board.
If you stack a few sheets together you can cut them all together and no tracks required.


Cracking idea, thanks :eusa-clap: :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: The Orangerie - glulams arriving today

Postby RogerS » 03 Sep 2018, 18:41

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:.....
I've not done a detailed analysis but I'd have thought that fitting your OSB from the centre towards each end that the 600 centres would be ideal and leaves any unusual cutting to the ends which are non standard pitch anyway.

Lovely sunny say down south again and no rain forecast for the next 2 weeks but I won't mention that. :lol:

Bob


Not when your OSB is 1220 x 2440 !


The waste is only going to be 40 mm or 1.6% per sheet :D

Bob


I do like the idea though :D
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 06 Sep 2018, 18:22

The roof joists are now in place despite cock-ups.

Image

I didn't look closely enough at the drawing and should have worked outwards from the centres of the long glulams. Instead, I just started at one end and spaced out 600mm from there. Wrong ! But at the end of the day, it's all hidden and I can finesse any issues of OSB cutting.

The ring shank nails turned out to be a proverbial PITA...possibly because they are cheap c**p from Toolstation. Impossible to bang in without bending and so they are now in the skip. Screws and the Paslode. Only wee problem is that I think the Paslode nails might be a bit on the short side and so I've got some longer ones on order and it will take all of 20 minutes to whack them in all over the structure.

Image

This was only a slight cockup - even if it was as bad as that. The drawing says to stick in two long i-beams at either end. They are supposed to overhang the timber bearer to give whatever the ceiling is made from something to fix to. But I went ahead and fixed them tightly against the rim-beam. Ergo no support. It's easily fixed by ripping down a long length and fixing that to the bearer to provide the missing support. However, if I'd put the i-beam where they suggested I would still have had to rip down some timber to give it a good fixing at the top to the rim beam. So..swings and roundabouts.

Now....I need your advice, chaps. In hindsight I would have fitted the two longest glulams slightly higher than the outside bearers to give me a little fall away from the lantern opening. Not that there should be any problem with puddling since it's going to be glass-fibred but in principle it's good to get rid of the water regardless. But I didn't and as it stand there is a fall but towards the lantern area. I could lift the ends of the short i-beams at the hanger end (lantern end) by packing out the hangers. Then cut some timber to bring the level of the top of the glulams to meet the elevated i-beams.

But is it worth it ?

I'd really like to crack on, get the OSB in and fibre-glassed as (a) the weather isn't brilliant and (b)there's loads more to do.

Any thoughts ?
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Mike G » 06 Sep 2018, 20:07

You'll only move the problem to the ceiling if you do that, Roger. There must be an over-all fall in the roof, so does this mean that there is a fall towards the long back section of the lantern?
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 06 Sep 2018, 21:06

Any fall has, I'm afraid, been a bit of a moveable feast. I've been aware of having a fall but over the sort of distance I'm working on (and possibly the method of construction) it's gone this way and that. I'm no too worried about the ceiling (still to decide what that will be) but I'm more concerned with getting the roof finished and water-tight.

The forecast for the next week is rain on every day which precludes me doing much.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Mike G » 06 Sep 2018, 22:05

Well you need falls, Roger, so I would cut some firrings. It's not a big job.

I have to say I am worried about fibreglass on this design. I would expect to see cracking around the corners of the lantern opening in years to come, as expansion and contraction take their toll on an inflexible product. Are you still planning to sell up and head for a sunnier part of the country?
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 07 Sep 2018, 08:35

I'll follow your advice, Mike, re the fall. Given that I need the top surface done ASAP I will create the falls by raising up the short i-beams at the lantern end and worry about the ceiling at a later date (and in the dry ...hopefully!).

I'm not concerned about the glass fibre as we've had one in a similar design before and the temperature cyclic variations were a lot more than we get up here. But yes, we will be looking to move sometime. The people are great, the air is fresh and hardly anyone around. But. The weather is dire.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby will1983 » 07 Sep 2018, 09:09

Following on from Mikes comment about cracking, the only place I would expect to see any appear would be radially from the lanterns corners.

To mitigate this risk you could employ the same method used in reinforced concrete structures, install some reinforcement perpendicular to the line of cracking at each corner. In fibreglassing terms I would expect this to be some fibreglass tape like this stuff.

https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/ ... 00g-x-50mm

At only £11ish fro a 50m roll I think it would be prudent.

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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby 9fingers » 07 Sep 2018, 09:10

RogerS wrote:I'll follow your advice, Mike, re the fall. Given that I need the top surface done ASAP I will create the falls by raising up the short i-beams at the lantern end and worry about the ceiling at a later date (and in the dry ...hopefully!).

I'm not concerned about the glass fibre as we've had one in a similar design before and the temperature cyclic variations were a lot more than we get up here. But yes, we will be looking to move sometime. The people are great, the air is fresh and hardly anyone around. But. The weather is dire.


Just a thought Roger, If instead of jacking up the short rafters in the joist hangers with a small block/packer you made some firring strips tapering to nothing, you could fit those on the underside of the I beams and your ceiling would remain horizontal.

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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Mike G » 07 Sep 2018, 09:30

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:I'll follow your advice, Mike, re the fall. Given that I need the top surface done ASAP I will create the falls by raising up the short i-beams at the lantern end and worry about the ceiling at a later date (and in the dry ...hopefully!).

I'm not concerned about the glass fibre as we've had one in a similar design before and the temperature cyclic variations were a lot more than we get up here. But yes, we will be looking to move sometime. The people are great, the air is fresh and hardly anyone around. But. The weather is dire.


Just a thought Roger, If instead of jacking up the short rafters in the joist hangers with a small block/packer you made some firring strips tapering to nothing, you could fit those on the underside of the I beams and your ceiling would remain horizontal.

Bob


......or just do it the traditional way, and put the firring pieces on top.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby 9fingers » 07 Sep 2018, 09:36

Mike G wrote:
9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:I'll follow your advice, Mike, re the fall. Given that I need the top surface done ASAP I will create the falls by raising up the short i-beams at the lantern end and worry about the ceiling at a later date (and in the dry ...hopefully!).

I'm not concerned about the glass fibre as we've had one in a similar design before and the temperature cyclic variations were a lot more than we get up here. But yes, we will be looking to move sometime. The people are great, the air is fresh and hardly anyone around. But. The weather is dire.


Just a thought Roger, If instead of jacking up the short rafters in the joist hangers with a small block/packer you made some firring strips tapering to nothing, you could fit those on the underside of the I beams and your ceiling would remain horizontal.

Bob


......or just do it the traditional way, and put the firring pieces on top.


When I first looked at rogers photo, I concluded he had fitted the decking already. as the areas looked like continuous OSB but maybe this is not the case and of course he can do it the conventional way on top.

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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Sep 2018, 07:33

Thanks chaps for the suggestions and advice.

So firring pieces it is. On top.

Question...do I extend the OSB through as in (B) or not as in (A)

firring piece a.jpg
(39.92 KiB)


firring piece b.jpg
(37.18 KiB)


Will...any chance you can post a sketch of where you recommend the reinforcing tape as I'm struggling to figure out where you have in mind ?
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby StevieB » 08 Sep 2018, 07:36

A has to be simpler surely? If you are putting a fibreglass skin over the top and are confident there will be no water ingress between the OSB and the upstand I cannot see what advantage B has?
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Robert » 08 Sep 2018, 09:47

where our lantern meets the deck and where the deck meets the parapet wall our builder used those triangular section fence rails with the 90 deg corner against deck an vertical to create a bevel all around the roof. Think this was so the corners on the fibreglass were gentle.

Not really sure why they did it but it looks OK.

Image

Image
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Sep 2018, 11:12

I am embarrassed to admit that I'm struggling to work out a simple, quick, easy and repeatable way of making the firring strips. :oops:

I have a taper jig but the table saw bed is way too short to use it.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Robert » 08 Sep 2018, 11:33

I watched our builders do it. Skill saw and a chalk line.

Given yours are fairly short I'd say a long fence on the bandsaw and a spacer block to one end of your strip so you cut along it diagonally.

Guess it would work on a table saw too.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Sep 2018, 17:37

Well I made them. Bit rough and ready....I sometimes lose focus and try to make things too accurate when there are other factors that make the degree of accuracy pointless. Took way too long and if I was doing it again, I;d buy them in...a quick Google shows silly prices.

Question ...is there a minimum size for a upstand ? What are the factors that need to be taken into consideration? I'm thinking of 90mm above OSB level.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Sep 2018, 17:40

StevieB wrote:A has to be simpler surely? If you are putting a fibreglass skin over the top and are confident there will be no water ingress between the OSB and the upstand I cannot see what advantage B has?


I thought about a big advantage for B. Currently the only thing that ties the short i-beams into the hangers are a couple of screws at the bottom on each i-beam. If I run the OSB all the way through to the glulams and fix the OSB to them and at the other end to the rim board then that will really strengthen things up. Easy enough to make the cut at the right angle. Then the offcut sits on top and that ensures the upstand carries on vertical.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Sep 2018, 18:46

Anyone have and ideas for the corners ? There are no joists in position to support the idea of a firring piece on the diagonal (shown red). Yet we somehow have to transition around the corners.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby 9fingers » 08 Sep 2018, 19:43

RogerS wrote:Anyone have and ideas for the corners ? There are no joists in position to support the idea of a firring piece on the diagonal (shown red). Yet we somehow have to transition around the corners.


How about using some of the surplus I beam stock to cut corner rafters, fixing them with screws and then cut some compound bevel firring strips to suit the junction in the osb.

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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Sep 2018, 22:12

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:Anyone have and ideas for the corners ? There are no joists in position to support the idea of a firring piece on the diagonal (shown red). Yet we somehow have to transition around the corners.


How about using some of the surplus I beam stock to cut corner rafters, fixing them with screws and then cut some compound bevel firring strips to suit the junction in the osb.

Bob


I've been thinking along those same lines....challenging !
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