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The Orangerie - duff glass-fibre-coating REPAIRED

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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Andyp » 26 Oct 2018, 09:42

Have you also sussed how to stop he water/snow pooling?
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 26 Oct 2018, 09:52

I have a cunning plan

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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Andyp » 26 Oct 2018, 10:19

RogerS wrote:I have a cunning plan


BBC2 running Blackadder Goes Forth, last night first 2 episodes.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby TrimTheKing » 26 Oct 2018, 11:19

RogerS wrote:I have a cunning plan

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There's the old Roger we know and lo...put up with! :eusa-whistle: :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 02 Nov 2018, 10:30

Diverted onto more 'important' tasks, it was only yesterday that I could finalise Plan B (or is it Plan C, I've lost track).

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Based on an original idea by RogerM, tile battens fixed along the top of the scaffold tubes. Tarpaulin then sandwiched between those tile battens and more battens screwed through.

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High winds tomorrow. Fingers crossed.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2018, 08:42

Delighted to report that Covering Plan Mk III has survived the strong winds over the weekend. Sandwiching all the way round the roof perimeter plus reinforcing cords overlaying the topside of the roof tarpaulin has worked. I also strung reinforcing cords round the walls as well to keep the tarpaulins there under control.

All OSB now down....but noticed some variation in thickness between boards which was surprising. Upstands starting to on then I can fibreglass. Only ......only I came across reference to UV being needed to cure the resin. Further research seemed to suggest 'it depends'. Does UV come through my plastic tarpaulin? Guess the only way to find out is to do a trial area.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby 9fingers » 05 Nov 2018, 09:12

I've done fibreglassing indoors on several jobs so no uv there?
Unless there is something special about your resin. Maybe call the manufacturer or to be sure, mix a trial batch up in the workshop with the lights off.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby will1983 » 05 Nov 2018, 10:53

I think it is a fair assumption that all products made of fibreglass are done inside a covered unit of some variety so I can't see how UV would be required for curing. Especially when you consider that most boats are made from FG and the vast majority of their surface area is hidden inside or against the face of a mould.

I know that epoxy is degraded by UV but this takes about 6months of intense exposure like that experienced in tropical areas. However this is easily prevented by painting the surface once the epoxy is cured. I'm fairly certain that you will be using a polyester resin which doesn't have the same issues though.

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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Andyp » 05 Nov 2018, 14:19

Glad to hear that it is still in one piece Roger.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerM » 05 Nov 2018, 15:27

Glad that you have your Mojo back Roger :eusa-dance: I would be surprised if lack of UV will be a significant factor in the curing of fibreglass resin. I have only ever used it in a garage with no windows years ago when building a Mirror class dinghy and a "stitch and resin" plywood kayak, and in neither case was UV (or lack there of) an issue. I think of greater importance is accurate and thorough mixing of the resin and hardener and maintaining a reasonable temperature throughout the curing process.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 07 Nov 2018, 22:22

It's all going a bit Ting-Tong :(

Particularly as I've never made a roof before, I decided that I should follow Mike's First Rule of Rooves

I absolutely insist on level and parallel plates,

And therein lies the rub. Just how level is level and how parallel is parallel.

And also how level does the top of the plates need to be ?

Because this is what I found and spent the best part of the day faffing about with little result.

First up, I went to try the laser level but it wasn't bright enough in daylight. So I waited for dusk, set it up and then glue-gunned some offcuts with the correct reference level marked on them and ready for the morning.

Image

The result was that the far end was pretty much level with the other end but along the long sides, the level was out by up to 9mm. Being a bit of a perfectionist I set out to try and level them all up. Two hours later, I'd only managed one long side and it was then that I noticed that the top of the upstand..on which the birdsmouths will sit wasn't level. Again, not out by much...a few mm here and there but thinking ahead, the rafters will be visible and so I thought I would end up seeing the rafters not sitting down square. The reason for them not being level was that my plan to cut the long firring pieces down the long sides at an angle, sandwich the OSB on top and then fit the companion piece to the firring bit underneath to bring it back to level. Only it didn't. No idea but it threw the tops of the upstands out of whack.

Digressing slightly I am still glad that I did do things this way as I realised that if on the underside of the joists I fixed a skin of 9mm ply then my roof has suddenly become a torsion box.

Anyway I faffed around for another couple of hours and finished one side. You can see the packers jutting out as, obviously they can't go all the way through to the outside otherwise I'd not be able to bring the tops back level.

Image

I then started on the other long side and applying the second part of Mike's Law, soon realised that the two long glulams weren't parallel. This one bows in at the middle by 10mm.

Image

So I'm in a bit of a quandary as not being an experienced roof maker, just wondered what grief I'll be setting up for myself if I don't offset the upstands to compensate for the bow.

Hope that all makes sense.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Robert » 07 Nov 2018, 23:14

I can't see it mattering if the levels are a bit off - based on our orangery roof. Ours isn't perfect and there are puddles left after it rains but it doesn't matter. The roof is glass fibre so it is boat like and a bit of water sitting on it causes no harm and evaporates away when we get some sun.

As to the opening size I can't see that mattering too much either. If your lantern is anything like ours it has a large oversize flange/trim with drip edge that goes on first to become the precise sized base of the lantern components. The wood it is screwed down onto just has to fit underneath within the width of the section not exact size.

I watched ours go in but didn't do any of the work so some guesswork may be included in the above :)
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Nov 2018, 06:05

I think that your lantern was possibly all aluminium, Robert ? Mine is a hybrid of wood rafters etc and aluminium capping.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Mike G » 08 Nov 2018, 09:27

Just summarise a bit for me Roger.

It seems that the problem is with the upstand for the lantern. Is that right? Some of the issue may because one of the joists supporting the lantern upstand is bowed. Again, am I following?

The reason for insisting that plates are parallel and level is that making every single pair of rafters in a pitched roof different from all the others is a mug's game. You don't have a pitched roof, so for the flat roof element you can simply adjust your firring pieces to compensate for the bowed joist, and so long as the roof slopes in the right direction (the real Rule 1), not be overly concerned about out of true plates. The upstand taking the lantern, though, is different.

I presume the lantern is being made separately on the ground, then lifted into place? If so, then I would suggest walking away from the wonky upstand now before it does you irreparable mental health damage (:) ), and dealing with the issue at the point at which you offer up the unglazed lantern for the first time.

It's important to understand that rooves aren't furniture. You don't make them with anything like the same precision, and even if you did, timber movement would soon undo your good work. Your lantern howeveris going to be like furniture: a decent piece of accurate joinery which will be on show, but the junction between the lantern and the upstand is A/ invisible, and B/ can be covered by decorative covering strips internally. This means that anything you do to level up underneath the lantern, even if it is just expanding foam or silicon sealer, won't be seen.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Mike G » 08 Nov 2018, 09:31

Just an aside. Sometimes the simple old-fashioned ways are best. Lasers are great, and have their place, but a long piece of straight aluminium section and a spirit level would certainly have been quicker and easier in this circumstance.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Nov 2018, 12:58

Many thanks for all the advice, Mike.

I've also been mulling this over and it seems to me that, as you say, I'm possibly losing a bit of perspective.

First off, the lantern will be made in place...same way that a pitched roof will be made and with a hip at each end.

It seems to me that there are three aspects to consider :

1) How level (or not) the top of the upstand is over its width. The width is 100mm and it tilts by a few mm across the width in some places. In retrospect I don't think that this is as much of a problem as I thought. Also in 'fixing' the tilt I'm using plastic spacers at one side of the upstand and screws to adjust the tilt back to level. I'd rather have the upstand sitting solidly on top of the roof platform.

2) How level (or not) the top of the upstand is down its length...some 6m plus. My conclusion is that a dip of 5-7mm is neither here nor there. The rafter will be pulled down tight on top of the upstand as it's screwed down. The fact that the ends of the rafters at the bottom are slightly out by a few mm is neither here nor there.

3) Lastly if the upstands are parallel to each other and I think that this is the most important bit to get right because I can make all the rafters the same length and the birdsmouth will look in the right place when viewed from inside the orangerie.

As Mike says, the fact that the upstand will have to overhang the glulam slightly on the inside of the well can be covered up with a 'feature' at a later date.

Does that make sense ?

Re a spirit level and length of aluminium...not sure where I'd get one 6.5m long TBH !
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Mike G » 08 Nov 2018, 13:37

You're right. Aluminium is sold in 6m lengths.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Nov 2018, 13:59

Does the other stuff make sense, Mike ? Am I now focussing on the right issue ?
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby Mike G » 08 Nov 2018, 14:58

You can certainly make that work, Roger. A well made lantern will pull itself straight and square, and you can deal with any gaps as they arise. Your lantern will have it's own cill plate, so I would simply have a box of wedges handy to true this up.

That's a big hole to be working over. You'll need a scaffold in the middle.
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Re: The Orangerie - roof skeleton in place

Postby RogerS » 08 Nov 2018, 15:06

Mike G wrote:...... Your lantern will have it's own cill plate, so I would simply have a box of wedges handy to true this up.
Ahh...I was proposing to make the upstand my cill plate

Mike G wrote:That's a big hole to be working over. You'll need a scaffold in the middle.


I've got a long Youngsmans staging board and two towers. I'll be re-reading how you did yours though !
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Re: The Orangerie - the Waiting Game

Postby RogerS » 11 Nov 2018, 10:30

Upstands all finished. Snots in the OSB removed, projecting spacers tidied up, excess overlap of the OSB in some areas removed and corners rounded over with a small router bit.

I was a bit concerned about the 90 degree corner between upstand and roof as I'd read somewhere about fibreglass not sticking well into corners. I'd bought some mouldings from Wickes but in hindsight they add little - in fact IMO make things worse - so I will be taping the corners between roof and upstand and fibreglassing over. I used resin before in a box I made up for soaking crinkly veneers and that's stood the test of time. I'm using white roofing finish and so that should help reflect any heat and so minimise movement. That's the theory at least.

There will be no drip trims around the perimeter because it's not that kind of roof ie no guttering. If you recall in an earlier post, and in another thread, I'm making a moulded pediment (?? if that's the right word) that will project out at the top giving me an inbuilt gutter which will be resined to waterproof.

So now we wait for (a) no rain as the tarpaulin drips and (b) warm enough for the resin to cure. I mentioned to LOML that I was fibreglassing the roof and she went off a bit on one saying that it would make it too hot for the plants ! Bless :D
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Re: The Orangerie - the Waiting Game

Postby Malc2098 » 11 Nov 2018, 11:33

Yay! Well done.
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Re: The Orangerie - the Waiting Game

Postby billybuntus » 12 Nov 2018, 09:45

Hello,

Looks like your heading in the right direction :-)

I had to fibreglass two bay windows in mid december a few years back. It will cure in the cold just much more slowly than in warm weather. If your a glassing in the cold I'd get a big storage heater/blower to help you along with the fibreglass curing quickly.

Once it starts to go off you will be fine but extra heat helps your sanity as its like watching paint dry waiting for it to cure in the cold weather as the darkness creeps in....
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Re: The Orangerie - the Waiting Game

Postby RogerS » 12 Nov 2018, 12:36

Hi bb...many thanks for the heater tip. Unfortunately I doubt I can use it here since I am outside ...possibly an infra-red heater might be a better option...we shall see.

Mixed up 500ml as a test this morning. Opted for the highest catalyst ratio as it was just about 7 degrees surface temperature and decided to apply tape to the joins as a test. Initially all seemed to go well but then I noticed that the remaining resin/catalyst mix in the pot was starting to turn jelly-like so waiting for a callback from EC Fibreglass Supplies technical for advice.
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Re: The Orangerie - the Waiting Game

Postby RogerS » 12 Nov 2018, 13:46

As I suspected, just part of the hardening process. Very tricky getting the mix right apparently as UV light can kick it off hardening even if it's cold. Also even though I only had 500g in the bucket, it is an exothermic reaction and so once it kicks off, the heat generated accelerates the process and explains why spreading a thin coat out on the roof will take longer to cure....not much heat generated and the little there is is soon lost.

Given the leakiness of the tarpaulin though I've decided to apply a neat coat of resin onto the OSB without fussing with the fibreglass matting which means that drips can be very quickly and easily dried up.
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