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The Orangerie - duff glass-fibre-coating REPAIRED

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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby RogerS » 15 Jul 2018, 13:09

Rod wrote:Probably but some stately homes have very tall ones.
The doors are going to be heavy (glass) and your frame has to support that.

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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby Andyp » 15 Jul 2018, 13:24

I took a different approach to Coley.

These supports can be moved and fixed anywhere along the bench and would enable a support infront of your drawers.

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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby Malc2098 » 15 Jul 2018, 13:39

In my limited experience of staying with friends in France, their French Windows are tall.

Perhaps Andy has more on that.
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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby Andyp » 15 Jul 2018, 14:39

Our patio doors/french windows are 2.2m high and 1.2 wide (each door of course being 60cm).

What looks right in Rogers orangery is another thing altogether and my feel for this things is not good but I would say that your frame maybe two wide rather than too tall.
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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby RogerS » 15 Jul 2018, 14:47

I think a lot depends on what any doors are going into. Remember that this is a single storey Orangerie and not a two storey house. The total height of the building also needs to 'sit' in its surroundings. We carried it out to the orangerie base and placed it onto the cill. We think that the actual height of this is right for the finished height of the orangerie (excluding the roof lantern).

You're right, though, Andy. The golden ratio for the height is 1400mm width. We're on 1560mm
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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby RogerS » 16 Jul 2018, 19:07

Need another rethink. I'd got to the point of deciding to make other main side frames like the one on the right.

new%20orangerie%20frame%20design.jpg
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Then I had a reality check this afternoon when I realised that the length of the proposed rails is 3.4m and that meant that that sub-frame would weight 'a ton'. Totally unmanageable. I could possibly assemble onsite but I'm struggling to rip a 3.6m board down as the Hammer is not quite in the right place and after trying to budge it today, it aint going to happen. Perhaps I should have gone for that wheel kit after all :cry:

And assembling outside with our weather ? Then protecting it until I can get a coat of linseed paint on ?

So back to the drawing board.
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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby RogerS » 16 Jul 2018, 19:19

Think I've cracked it. Keep the same modular frame concept...mortice and tenon at the ends but open mortice...not sure what you'd call it.

Then overlay a second piece with a proper mortice that slides over the elongated tenons locking it all together and giving a lot of meat around the tenons.

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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby Pinch » 16 Jul 2018, 19:48

Roger, that's the way to go... 8-)

When I worked in the joiner's shop during my apprenticeship, we made many bay window frames and the principle of through mortice & tenons without the haunch (open M&T) was the norm - frames only and not the sashes. They would either be pegged through the joint or screwed through to the tenon's shoulders - sometimes nailed using 4" wires. All the abutting jambs on either 3, 5+ part bays are exactly as you're proposing for your frames. The added ring beam with mortices to take the extended tenons from your frame's jambs would also be a great addition. You could also hammer in some wedges from the top like a normal haunch M&T joint.
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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby RogerS » 18 Jul 2018, 06:51

Thanks, Pinch, for the reassurance that I'm going in the right direction.

I've ditched the structural engineer as this one (although extremely good and who advised on some detailing re the house) is also more at home with steel. His comment 'your columns might not be string enough' didn't inspire confidence especially as I came across this excellent calculator. It tells me that just one of my 4x4 columns in compression will support nearly 4 tonnes. I'm nowhere near that weight with my roof loading. Even with snow !

Yesterday was another day of prepping and my arms ached by the end of the day manhandling the timber.
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Re: The Orangerie - glulam specifying

Postby RogerS » 22 Jul 2018, 17:54

So, after gnashing my teeth over Chinese rubbish in the morticer thread, I finally fettled the morticer into some semblance of a decent machine and so we're off to do some mortice and tenons.

Now, I'm not an expert and there are bound to be different and better ways of doing them but here goes. I started with the tenons. The key is getting them all the same and also the important bit is getting the length the same between the shoulders when there are tenons at both ends ..as we have in this case. So I start with a reference point which is to cut all the rails to the same length and ditto stiles. I'm using a story stick and that has a knife mark at the length of the rails and also the stiles.

Image

I like using the Japanese marking knife as it gives a very thin but distinct line

These initial reference marks were made using a steel metre rule as I don't like using retracting tape measures as IMO they are not accurate. I transfer that reference mark over onto one of the rails and cut it square on the mitre saw.

I'll then lock off a stop block on the bench

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Then the remaining rails (or stiles) are tucked up to that stop and the excess length cut off...having made sure that the end against the stop has been cut square to begin with (DAMHIKT).

To get the shoulders marked I make a lot of use of these (I've mentioned them before)

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This one is set at 30mm which is the tenon offset from the edges

and this one which is the length

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and again I will use my marking knife to transfer these settings to the timber. I never bother to mark the entire length of the tenon as there is no point. Now I could repeat this action on all the rails (or stiles for that matter) but far quicker to put two rails together and cut the first shoulder.

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remembering to adjust our reference point first so that the remaining rails can again simply be moved against the stop and the cut made.

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The actual tenons are cut on the bandsaw and this is the weakest link in the whole process as I have to rely on one of these horrible supports.

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Oh yes, nearly forgot to mention that while ripping stuff on the table saw I sensed that the dust wasn't being collected as well as it had been. On inspection .....

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Lucky I've got a handy skip :eusa-whistle:

I also replaced my fine sub-micron filter on the other chip collector as I'm embarrassed to say that the one fitted was very very old and way past being effective.

I mentioned in another thread in the Tips section that I don;t always plane or thickness right the way down but will be thinking of what is going to be cut off in the future and here is a case in point. This piece of timber was already 1mm under the target width.

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1mm I can finesse into the design but if I'd carried on thicknessing it down to effectively remove all the chalk then it would be way too much undersized. But that bits being cut off. So I could stop thicknessing.

Next instalment ...morticing
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby Malc2098 » 22 Jul 2018, 20:58

I have just acquired a little used Axminster hobby mortiser from Gumtree and with the two small Ax chisels I've done some passable mortise test holes in old carcass stock. I took everything very slow and it seems to go alright.

I'd love to read your next instalment and get any tips for the job I want to use the machine for.
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby Andyp » 23 Jul 2018, 08:03

I guess using the mitre saw in trenching mode to cut the whole tenon is a tad awkward on such long lengths.
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby RogerS » 23 Jul 2018, 08:08

Andyp wrote:I guess using the mitre saw in trenching mode to cut the whole tenon is a tad awkward on such long lengths.


Are you talking about using it to cut the long sides of the tenon ? If so there is a wee problem :) And not just the length of the timber ;)
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby will1983 » 23 Jul 2018, 11:27

Regarding tape measures,

I use them a lot in my day job so I only buy Class 1 tapes (Single I marked somewhere on the first 300mm), these are accurate to about ±1.1mm/10meters (±0.11mm/m)

Most tapes are class 2 (II marked somewhere on the first 300mm), these aren't as accurate as class 1 tapes but still better than the uncertified cheap tapes available.

However if you use the same tape for a whole project then any inaccuracies should be cancelled out, variations usually occur when different tapes are used. If you are using the scales marked on your machines then remember this and do a double check against your "Project Tape".

Also wherever possible I try to take measurements starting from the 100mm mark, this negates any possible inaccuracy arising from the hook slider not operating correctly. You just need to remember to add 100mm to the dimension you are looking for or you end up with a really accurately cut piece of timber that is exactly 100mm to short!

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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby RogerS » 23 Jul 2018, 11:49

will1983 wrote:....

Also wherever possible I try to take measurements starting from the 100mm mark, this negates any possible inaccuracy arising from the hook slider not operating correctly. ....

Will


It's what I've been doing but it's such a faff and negates the point of the hook slider. Interesting point re the different classes. I wasn't aware of that. Can you point us in the direction of good manufacturers ?
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby will1983 » 23 Jul 2018, 12:02

RogerS wrote:
Can you point us in the direction of good manufacturers ?


Have a look at these Roger;

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The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby Rod » 23 Jul 2018, 12:33

I once checked the position of a concrete bridge pier, the contractor had used the 1m trick but forgot to add the 1m back. A very expensive mistake,

I have a 1m steel rule as well as smaller ones but anything over that I use my Lufkin and Fisco tapes - I’ll have to check what grades they are.

For really, really big jobs I have a 100m Invar Steel tape!

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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby RogerS » 23 Jul 2018, 12:37

will1983 wrote:
RogerS wrote:
Can you point us in the direction of good manufacturers ?


Have a look at these Roger;

clickety click


Many thanks for that excellent link.
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby Andyp » 23 Jul 2018, 17:13

RogerS wrote:
Andyp wrote:I guess using the mitre saw in trenching mode to cut the whole tenon is a tad awkward on such long lengths.


Are you talking about using it to cut the long sides of the tenon ? If so there is a wee problem :) And not just the length of the timber ;)


By the tone of your response methinks I've asked another stupid question.
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby RogerS » 23 Jul 2018, 17:43

Andyp wrote:
RogerS wrote:
Andyp wrote:I guess using the mitre saw in trenching mode to cut the whole tenon is a tad awkward on such long lengths.


Are you talking about using it to cut the long sides of the tenon ? If so there is a wee problem :) And not just the length of the timber ;)


By the tone of your response methinks I've asked another stupid question.


Questions are never stupid. If I understood you correctly then when the circular saw blade gets to the shoulder, it's not cutting in a straight line up and down. The same reason why you have to pad out the stock when you are trenching with the saw.
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Re: The Orangerie - tenons and mortices

Postby RogerS » 23 Jul 2018, 18:39

So what about these 'ere morticers. For anyone not familiar with them a quick guided tour. What do you look out for ?

A substantial support from which to hang the induction motor that powers the mortice chisel.

Image

Ideally, as we have here, you get two stops that limit the depth to which you make the mortice and also another one that limits how far up does the chisel return. The latter being very useful as it saves you having to keep winding the chisel down through 'dead space'.

In an ideal world, you'll also have a couple of stops at the rear that limit the sideways movement - especially useful when chopping out large mortices that need several passes.

Image

Image

Also as you can see here a sacrificial piece...which saves you trying to drill into the cast iron table. I cocked up here and should have put a proper sacrificial piece on top of the smart bit that you can see in the photo and which came with the morticer. Trouble is that the table is higher than my assembly bench and when I made the extra support to go on top of the assembly table I forgot to factor in a sacrificial piece. There is a much more relevant reason for having a separate or disposable sacrifical piece. I'll let you work that one out for yourselves. Answer at the end ;)

What else ? A decent solid well-engineered table with a couple of decent sized handles for moving the table back and forth and sideways.

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Image

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On the morticer that I sent back, the handle for back and forth was a horribly small knurled knob that was a struggle to use and it's location meant you kept bashing your knuckles on another part as you tried to turn it.

A decent sized clamp to hold the work

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although it fails when morticing hardwood as I found out on the first morticer I ever bought. As you raised the chisel, it failed to release properly from the hardwood and so the hardwood was pulled upwards with the chisel because you're relying on a friction grip from that clamp. Especially noticeable on smaller machines that have a smaller clamp than this. As I type this I'm wondering if a sheet of abrasive glued to the face of the clamp would alleviate this problem.

Of course, on a larger morticer, such as this one, you have the solution provided with a hold-down

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I made up an additional support to go on top of the assembly table to bring the stock up to the right level.

Image

You want the chisel to move up and down perpendicular to the table. And if they supply a chisel like this with the machine then throw it away. Apart from being crudely made, bent ad with terrible edges, the shoulder that you reference to when fitting the chisel ...well, some muppet made it tapered, so part of it moves up inside the collar and so you are totally guessing where to set it. Hopeless. That shoulder should be square. I bought a very nice Harima Japanese pattern mortice chisel from Axminster. Nice.

So to work.

First mortice marked out using those Axminster gauges again and mortice cut. Such a long time since I made any mortices with a machine...actually such a long time since I made any mortices. Period. :oops:

And, as mentioned earlier, jolly good job that they supplied a sacrificial piece on top of the table as otherwise I'd have wrecked my lovely new mortice chisel.

Image

I asked earlier on why you needed a disposable sacrificial piece of wood. Well the reason is that besides stopping you from nadgering up the end of the chisel, it acts as a backing block to prevent breakout from the underside of the sock and although you'd think that if you were making the same cut each time that it would still work just fine, it doesn't simply because after the first mortice, there's a thumping great hole in it ad it only takes slight misalignment for breakout to occur.

So clever trick. If you're making multiple mortices the same in a number of pieces of stock then you could mark up each piece and then cut the mortice. Or :idea: you could put the next piece underneath the one you're working on so that (a) you have a new 'sacrificial' piece and (b) your chisel as it cuts into it is self-marking for the mortice cut that you're going to make in it. Like this...

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Good idea, eh ? Of course, you need to keep an eye on any errors that might drift in but that's easy enough to do. NB Only works if that chisel is perpendicular.

So let's have a look at the result. Looks pretty square to me.

Image

And mating tenon to mortice

Image

Lovely jubbly. Progress. Ready to be glued up.

Image
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Re: The Orangerie - Glulam design question

Postby RogerS » 23 Jul 2018, 19:05

Bak to Glulams. While morticing and tenoning, I've been mithering about the glulams and can't decide as to the best approach.

The design of the glass lantern is TBD. But it fits where the hole is. As I see it there are two approaches to supporting it. There is this one - glulam A (two) 8m long

glulam a.png
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and this one - glulam B (four)

glulam b.png
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Any thoughts ?
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Re: The Orangerie - Glulam design question

Postby Malc2098 » 23 Jul 2018, 20:59

Thanks, Roger. Really helpful, even though mine is the baby one.
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Re: The Orangerie - Glulam design question

Postby 9fingers » 23 Jul 2018, 22:02

Roger, I'd be tempted to contact a gluelam supplier. I'm sure they will have seen similar requirements and have all the modelling software to work out the loadings and strength needed. They should be able to offer different topologies and trade-offs between them.
The beams will need to be stronger at the ends so there might be scope for some arty designs rather than constant cross-section beams.

They will of course need to know the dead load of the lantern and the dynamic loads and exposure factors as starting points.

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The Orangerie - Glulam design question

Postby Rod » 23 Jul 2018, 23:31

B is intrinsically stronger than A having shorter spans.
Where is Mr G, he keeps answering folks on UKW?

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