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Set of circular segmented steps

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby 9fingers » 09 Jan 2020, 16:17

SamQ aka Ah! Q! wrote:P.S. "Deed poll" was the way you changed your name in days of old, maybe even Job's.... :eusa-whistle:
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And still is to this day

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 09 Jan 2020, 19:01

Meanwhile back on the thread and making a Job lot of it. ;) :D

I was planning to work on the riser readying it for finishing but discovered that the veneer had lifted up slightly and buckled right at the far end and so that needed fixing but no further work due to glue setting. This is the main niggle of this project...too many dependencies plus limited assembly/working space in the workshop.

So decided to make up the two outer edge 'mouldings' (for want of a better word.....nosings ?). Decided not to cooper excessively since I had a reasonably wide piece of oak that I could use to make 60-75% of the nosing in one piece. Then it was just a case marking out the remaining pieces, cutting them on the mitresaw, finessing them with the disc sander, using a 4mm domino at each joint and glueing them all up. I use the template as my guide as I decided to glue them all together and router trim and mould them in one go.

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I've also decided to domino/glue the veneered 'transition' marker to these mouldings first and then fix them to the subframe as a unit.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 10 Jan 2020, 17:58

Fixed the smaller nosing to its template, started running it over the bearing guided cutter and all was going very well until…..

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It all happened bloody fast and I still don’t know quite what caused it to happen. Just means a bit more faffing about adding and glueing a new piece (if I have enough oak left). Fortunately I still have all my fingers but I’m going to have to think of a better way of holding this.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerM » 10 Jan 2020, 18:25

RogerS wrote:Fixed the smaller nosing to its template, started running it over the bearing guided cutter and all was going very well until…..

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It all happened bloody fast and I still don’t know quite what caused it to happen. Just means a bit more faffing about adding and glueing a new piece (if I have enough oak left). Fortunately I still have all my fingers but I’m going to have to think of a better way of holding this.
Looks like it was a climbing cut against the grain? I had a similar experience under similar conditions. Happens bloody quick doesn't it! I found that if I fed the workpiece through the other way, so that the cut was with the grain, the problem didn't occur.

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Phil » 11 Jan 2020, 11:49

RogerM wrote:Looks like it was a climbing cut against the grain? I had a similar experience under similar conditions. Happens bloody quick doesn't it! I found that if I fed the workpiece through the other way, so that the cut was with the grain, the problem didn't occur.


Agree with that one.
Did not plan and think of what I was doing.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 11 Jan 2020, 18:35

It was too much end grain being presented to the cutter. That and taking too big a cut.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 13 Jan 2020, 19:40

So here we have the larger nosing and transition piece (for the bottom step). After my little (ahem) mishap, managed to finesse routing the nosing back to the template plus rounding the corners over with a different cutter. The outside radii in the troublesome area were finished off on the linisher...a lot more gentle process than a whizzing router cutter.

I started to carry on sanding the nosing etc but felt I was playing with fire as I had been caught out with some hidden shakes in the oak and I didn't want to run the risk of it snapping. So bearing in mind my decision to pre-fit the nosing to the transition marker before fitting to the subframe now was a good time to do it.

Lots of 4mm domino's...too many in hindsight. Sealed the tops of the two pieces with Blanchon Original Wood Environment to avoid any glue filling pores etc.

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and away we go.

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A girl can never have too many clamps...
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And this turned out to be the hairiest glue-up I've ever attempted especially as there were some cockups along the way that I'm too embarrassed to admit to. :oops: But the joint looks tight and tidy-ish ...

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 15 Jan 2020, 17:35

If you recall, one issue bothering me was how to secure the riser to the subframe since it couldn't be fixed prior to veneering. Idea 1 was to glue blocks to the inside face and then screw them down to the bottom subframe panel....like so..
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Still got the question of how to glue to the edge of the top subframe panel. And until a few days ago, the plan was to have lots of small blocks top and bottom to provide a glued fixing point between riser and panels. Then I bought that secondhand Startrite 301 and although it's scruffy and seen a lot of use, by Jove, it cuts well and for the first time, cuts don't wander, stay vertical and so problem solved.

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Bottom panel in place

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Add glue and retire.

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Someone asked about heat from the CH pipes. I'm only too aware of what that can do as shown by oak floorboards at our old place and the maple floorboards here. Apart from lagging the pipes, I'm hoping that the subframe top panel will also let any heat be spread and dissipate across the whole top rather than localised. In any event the pipes aren't that close.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby 9fingers » 15 Jan 2020, 18:25

Coming together nicely now Roger after a few stressful brown trouser moments :lol:

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby SamQ aka Ah! Q! » 16 Jan 2020, 08:38

Nicely done, that man. Living in a 'lumpy'-floored house like yours, I salute you!

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby SamQ aka Ah! Q! » 16 Jan 2020, 08:40

P.S. in my case, the retard put in new floors on sloping joists, then built-in wardrobes over the top of them...
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 16 Jan 2020, 13:28

The good news or the bad news ?

Trimmed the riser and offered up the nosing/transition strip combi. Looks good, eh ?

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Um no. A very, bloody, Godawful, sit-in-a-corner hugging myself and sobbing quietly NO. I forgot to factor in the thickness of the riser. But even if I had, there is still something wrong. And I have absolutely no idea how to fix it. I can't face doing it all again. I don't have enough veneer. I don't have enough oak. To say I am totally gutted and devastated is an under-statement. :(

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby TrimTheKing » 16 Jan 2020, 13:36

Can you not just remove it and trim back the supports to bring those corners in a bit? It will be a bit of a tighter radius than you wanted but not by much...
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 16 Jan 2020, 13:39

TrimTheKing wrote:Can you not just remove it and trim back the supports to bring those corners in a bit? It will be a bit of a tighter radius than you wanted but not by much...


Trim what supports ? It's all glued up.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby TrimTheKing » 16 Jan 2020, 13:41

Come on Roger, you're an infinitely resourceful and indefatigable man, I'm sure you can pop it all apart somehow...
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 16 Jan 2020, 13:43

TrimTheKing wrote:Come on Roger, you're an infinitely resourceful and indefatigable man, I'm sure you can pop it all apart somehow...


Not a snowball's.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Andyp » 16 Jan 2020, 16:36

He, or she, who never made a mistake never made anything. The only words of comfort I can think of.

But where there is a will there is a way. Sleep it on it.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Jonathan » 17 Jan 2020, 09:02

Rodger...feel your pain, we've all been there!

Could you not cut the moulding in a couple of palaces, and domino in some clever splices to give you a better radius.....make some thought about where to do the cuts and the material for the splices and you would probably be the only person that will see it.

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 17 Jan 2020, 10:50

Thanks, Jonathan.

I'd thought about that. Cutting in the middle, moving the two halves into the right position and then inserting a walnut wedge in the gap but veto'd by Chief Designer. I'm going to take a raincheck for a while on this project. At least we have another door into the room!

Had a peek at your website. There's some quality stuff there :eusa-clap:
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Jonathan » 17 Jan 2020, 11:10

Rodger.

I wouldn't put it in the middle, it would kind of smack you in the face as a mistake ....I would divide in 3.....so 2 splices and it would look like a design feature.

One of the problems you could come up with in the future is....because of the cross grain it could split.

I now very little about this but would love to try steam bending something like that..

ps....where did you see my website addresses?

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 30 Jan 2020, 15:22

Now where were we ? Ah yes ...

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A suggestion by my wife prompted a bit of lateral thinking
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Turn it into a 'feature'... :eusa-dance:

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Don't look too closely at the duff join in the veneer. It's not really that noticeable in the flesh. Honest.

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Well aware that the corner edge is vulnerable but can live with that.

Laid the floorboards for the bottom step in place, placed the nosing assembly on top and drew a pencil line between the two. Originally I'd planned to use the template I'd made/bodged ages ago...where we talked about bearings and offsets..but came to the conclusion that it would be better to go the pencil-round route.

The curves are cut close to the line on the bandsaw and then sanded on the linisher which makes short work provided you are careful not to go too gung-ho.

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Then it's just a simple task of finely sanding to the required shape and offering each piece up to the nosing to check for a fit. Easy-peasy :eusa-whistle: ...not. Do I do it in the house with the nosing fixed (permanently or temporarily...both have their plus and minuses) - trekking back and forth between house and workshop? Or take the nosing out to the workbench, clamp it in place and finesse the curves on the floorboards there? The latter being very handy since the linisher is only feet away. I opted for the latter.

I used the central piece of floorboard as my reference
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That piece went in very easily as did the next one a long but by the time I started on the third piece it all started getting very tricky as the individual pieces slipped and slid relative to each other. And relative to the nosing. But they all look OK-ish once in place. Eventually.

But now I’m in a quandary and a rod for my back of my own making. How the Hell do I fix them all down ?

I can glue and screw (using Tongue-Tite screws …ideal for this purpose) the nosing down first but how do I ensure that it’s in the right place relative to where the floorboards will be?

And if I do that then how do I get the floorboards into place as they are T&G

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I can’t glue them up as a unit and then drop them into place after fitting the nosing because (a) the CH pipe makes that difficult and more importantly (b) I’ve found that their position relative to the nosing is critical if gaps here and there are not to appear. They shouldn’t do because it’s a nice perfect curve…not ! Think I might have had some play in my trammel when I made the original templates.

I can’t fit the floorboards down first ahead of the nosing as then I can’t get any screws into the nosing and neither can I clamp it down while the glue sets.

Current thoughts are to remove the bottom tongue of the groove of each piece so that they can drop down onto the adjacent floorboards tongue but I do know that the floorboards are not 100% flat and so I’m going to have to glue them in place with a damn heavy weight on each to keep them flat until the glue sets ….but even then I’m concerned that the glue could fail and let them pop back up, as it were. I’m reluctant to screw them down using those plug and dowel sets as they’d be too visible.

Also I noted that the nosing moves slightly as the Tongue-Tite screws are inserted.

So the current plan is to get my mate, Richard, up. We place the floorboards in position unfixed. Apply glue where the nosing will go. Offer up the nosing to get the best tightest fit to the floorboards. Then while he holds the nosing rigidly in place, I remove the floorboards which then allows us to screw the nosing down. Then starting at one side, apply glue for the first floorboard, screw it down through its tongue using Tongue-Tite screws. Drop the next one in place and repeat the fixing…all the while making sure that they are as snug a fit as possible to the nosing.

And hopefully the last one will drop precisely into position with nary a gap. But I don’t think I have anything heavy enough to keep any bent ones down until the glues has gone off.

Straws…clutching.

Any ideas, chaps ? :eusa-think:
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Robert » 30 Jan 2020, 16:35

I've struggled a bit trying to understand exactly what you are doing here :)

If I see it right your nosing and floor panels will fit together into a large semi circular panel. Rather than fit that panel in bits to the step base couldn't you make the panel up then fix it as one piece.

I'm thinking some kind of Tee toggle on the underside that go into keyhole slots in the sub panel. Dry fit until it all seems tight then glue it on. or don't glue if it is strong enough and just screw it down under the top step.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 30 Jan 2020, 16:56

Robert wrote:I've struggled a bit trying to understand exactly what you are doing here :)


You and me both ! :D
Robert wrote:If I see it right your nosing and floor panels will fit together into a large semi circular panel. Rather than fit that panel in bits to the step base couldn't you make the panel up then fix it as one piece.


It's a nice idea but impractical to glue up, clamp and manhandle as it's so large relatively. Even if I managed to do that, there's a potential weakness in the joint between nosing and floorboards...think trying to glue the two ends of a piece of ply together. Lots of end grain on end grain.

Robert wrote:I'm thinking some kind of Tee toggle on the underside that go into keyhole slots in the sub panel. Dry fit until it all seems tight then glue it on. or don't glue if it is strong enough and just screw it down under the top step.


The top step isn't accessible to do any screwing down.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 30 Jan 2020, 17:33

The answers to a couple of my concerns have been staring me in the face ! :eusa-doh:

Keeping the nosing assembly in place for gluing and screwing ...sorted !

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My concern about removing part of the T&G on the floorboards ? Only necessary on the last piece :D All the rest can be 'finessed' into place without removing anything. :text-bravo: So I can use the T&G to keep it all level and secure.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 02 Feb 2020, 12:13

While the nosing is being glued down (I used a version of No-Nails as it dries slightly flexible) attention turned to the top step.

Having learned a lot from making the bottom step and being a smaller step, it went together much quicker and slicker than the bottom step.

Create the subframe with suitable cutout for the CH pipes.

Bandsaw curved blocks to support the riser.

Glue and screw all together then ..

Glue the riser in place - pre-curving it using the hot-air gun technique…brilliant tip.

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Add lots of screws to hold it down tight against the curved support blocks

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And when the glue went off, add the veneer, stick the whole lot in the vacuum press et voila

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