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Orangerie guttering

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Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 09:42

First off the interesting part. These arrived in the pst the other day. Samples from a moulding company. They use a 6-head moulder. :mrgreen: I'm not at all jealous. Quality is excellent.

Image
The aim is something like this..

Image
After a lot of deliberation, we've decided on this moulding although I'm not happy about the bottom moulding I ran up. The radius is too large IMO.
Image

I originally planned to make the guttering just out of an 18mm plywood channel, fibreglassed inside. But I couldn't work out a good way to keep the guttering from sagging while letting water flow freely. Plus not confident of my fibreglassing skills ! Or my ability to mount it with the right degree of slope etc.

So have decided to do it this way.
Image

To get the slope correct, I'll fix some roofing battens onto the ring beam. They will also support the bottom horizontal piece of the 18mm ply. At intervals down each side (distance of the interval TBD...current thoughts are each metre) I will have some softwood verticals - all identical which makes life easier and makes supporting the plastic gutter dead easy and on the right slope. These verticals will be pocket screwed into the ring beams. Everything wood will have linseed oil paint on it.

The plastic gutter sits on top. To seal the gutter to the fibreglass on the roof will take some finessing and preparation. Currently thinking about using an old circular saw (nails might be an issue...I forget how close I nailed the OSB to the edge. Should have taken more photos) to cut a rebate in the edge of the OSB and existing fibreglass. Into this rebate I will sit some right-angle plastic channel (ripping down square downpipe on the bandsaw). Probably sit this down onto Plumbers Gold onto the OSB as a failsafe. Then refibreglass over this and down into the plastic gutter. In theory I could do away with the plastic channel but belt and braces comes to mind. Plus it's easier to wrap the fibreglass round the radius on this.

I've researched and can see no chemical reason why I can't fibreglass over the plastic gutter.

Then I can fix the front piece of ply and then the mouldings. My only question is how to seal the endgrain of the 18mm ply - shown by the green arrow. Not sure ...any ideas, chaps.

Lastly the actual moulding at the top. It's 100mm high. I'd need two cutters made up specially and probably a larger block. And the wood, of course. Or I bite the bullet and pay the company to supply the mouldings but we are talking an awful lot of money.

That's the plan but I'm hoping Mike will have a better one !
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby 9fingers » 17 Jun 2020, 10:36

How about sloping the top edge of the lower moulding to shed water more effectively and possibly overhang the lower edge to form a drip rail?

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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 10:44

9fingers wrote:How about sloping the top edge of the lower moulding to shed water more effectively and possibly overhang the lower edge to form a drip rail?

Bob


That's a good idea. Thx, Bob.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby 9fingers » 17 Jun 2020, 10:53

what is the plan for the top edge of the top moulding ans sealing the raw ply edge?
Maybe an 18 mm rebate on the top moulding to cover the ply. Or an applied sealing strip to cap it in some way ?

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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 11:22

9fingers wrote:what is the plan for the top edge of the top moulding ans sealing the raw ply edge?
Maybe an 18 mm rebate on the top moulding to cover the ply. Or an applied sealing strip to cap it in some way ?

Bob

I think it's going to have to be a strip of wood ..epoxied ? Or just a liberal coating of resin maybe ?
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby 9fingers » 17 Jun 2020, 11:30

RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:what is the plan for the top edge of the top moulding ans sealing the raw ply edge?
Maybe an 18 mm rebate on the top moulding to cover the ply. Or an applied sealing strip to cap it in some way ?

Bob

I think it's going to have to be a strip of wood ..epoxied ? Or just a liberal coating of resin maybe ?

Maybe a suitable profile in the top surface of the moulding to allow a slathering of resin and matting over into the gutter such that it does not spoil the look of the outer edge. Or maybe another run of the profile you have on the roof edge sealed with resin.

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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 13:21

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:what is the plan for the top edge of the top moulding ans sealing the raw ply edge?
Maybe an 18 mm rebate on the top moulding to cover the ply. Or an applied sealing strip to cap it in some way ?

Bob

I think it's going to have to be a strip of wood ..epoxied ? Or just a liberal coating of resin maybe ?

Maybe a suitable profile in the top surface of the moulding to allow a slathering of resin and matting over into the gutter such that it does not spoil the look of the outer edge. Or maybe another run of the profile you have on the roof edge sealed with resin.

Bob


I can do that by mounting the moulding a tad higher than the ply. The lazy-boy's rebate !
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby greeno » 17 Jun 2020, 13:24

RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:what is the plan for the top edge of the top moulding ans sealing the raw ply edge?
Maybe an 18 mm rebate on the top moulding to cover the ply. Or an applied sealing strip to cap it in some way ?

Bob

I think it's going to have to be a strip of wood ..epoxied ? Or just a liberal coating of resin maybe ?


Why don't you just use a right angled plastic overlay like you're doing on thre other edge of the gutter?
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 13:28

greeno wrote:
RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:what is the plan for the top edge of the top moulding ans sealing the raw ply edge?
Maybe an 18 mm rebate on the top moulding to cover the ply. Or an applied sealing strip to cap it in some way ?

Bob

I think it's going to have to be a strip of wood ..epoxied ? Or just a liberal coating of resin maybe ?


Why don't you just use a right angled plastic overlay like you're doing on thre other edge of the gutter?


That's one option, certainly. If I sit the moulding up a bit, as mentioned above, then that plastic could sit on top without the need for any fibreglass. Just a good dollop of silicon (accepting that silicon sealant never sticks well to guttering).
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby Mike G » 17 Jun 2020, 13:41

I'd sit another moulding over the top of the two (the ply and the fancy moulding in your drawing & model).

The thing that worries me about this is fibreglassing the guttering into position permanently. That does seem like a major problem for someone down the line.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 14:03

Mike G wrote:I'd sit another moulding over the top of the two (the ply and the fancy moulding in your drawing & model).

The thing that worries me about this is fibreglassing the guttering into position permanently. That does seem like a major problem for someone down the line.


Thanks, Mike...."fancy moulding", indeed, harrumph :D

You're right. I don't need to extend the fibreglass all the way into the gutter. All I really need is a good seal between the roof and the plastic L shape.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby greeno » 17 Jun 2020, 14:28

That's one option, certainly. If I sit the moulding up a bit, as mentioned above, then that plastic could sit on top without the need for any fibreglass. Just a good dollop of silicon (accepting that silicon sealant never sticks well to guttering).



stixall is what you want. It sticks just about everything to everything.

https://www.toolstation.com/stixall-adh ... 0ml/p77137
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 16:54

greeno wrote:That's one option, certainly. If I sit the moulding up a bit, as mentioned above, then that plastic could sit on top without the need for any fibreglass. Just a good dollop of silicon (accepting that silicon sealant never sticks well to guttering).



stixall is what you want. It sticks just about everything to everything.

https://www.toolstation.com/stixall-adh ... 0ml/p77137


Thanks, Greeno
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 17 Jun 2020, 18:30

A useful days work. Set up the working platforms and removed copious amounts of silicon left over from temporary 'gutters' etc. The one thing that has been niggling away is how to do it all in one day especially if the weather is iffy. The metal detector gizmo tells me that my nails are close to the edge and right where I was planning to run the circular saw down. So I will be angle grinding a channel out ...well, at least first to see how it goes. That takes time and leaves the OSB exposed and I really don't want it getting wet.

At first sight, it seemed to me that I need to fix the battens, make the vertical supports and fix them, then lay the gutter on top, fix the plastic L-shape then start fibreglassing etc.

Nope...all I need do is cut away a rebate in the OSB. Place some Stixall down. Then screw the plastic L shape but away from the ring beam sufficient to let me slide the gutter up and under. I do NOT need to fibreglass all the way round and down into the gutter. Nor do I need any actual fibreglass because the strip that needs 'fibreglassing' is only about 30mm wide and I can see my fibreglass matting disintegrating when cut to such a thin width. Unless anyone advises against. EDIT: I see that you can get proper fibreglass tape which counters that concern.

So that will seal the OSB. The gap between it and the ring beam is generous enough that all I need do is slide the gutter underneath.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 21 Jun 2020, 11:43

That was the theory. Now in practice ...just about enough span to do the whole length in one go.

Image

I used my grotty Titan planer to clean up and level off the OSB and remove the last of the silicon.
Image
The guttering will form a continuous loop around the roof with just one running outlet. So some finessing at the corner was needed. Trusty Fein to the fore.
Image
Image

Trying to rebate the top of the OSB is a definite no-no. All I can do is flatten any obvious lumps, give the edge of the fibreglass a good sanding to provide a key.

Light fading and so that was it for the day.

Or so I thought. We finally had some rain of any intensity and TBH was seriously asking if some of you guys down South could send me some as we've not had any serious rain for the last TWO ( :o yup, 2, deux, dos) months. Chance would have me pop into the orangerie and that cussing you heard was from me. Niagara bloody Falls. Clearly in my prep work I'd breached the waterproof integrity (badly). Tools awash. Mopping up...out with Plumbers Gold, up the platform and plugged any obvious looking gaps.

Next day, all dried out, thankfully and by close of play...two lengths in position. Existing fibreglass cleaned and wiped down with acetone, and a ribbon of resin along the internal edge to keep out the water.

Image

(and I really wish I knew why the composition of some photos really messes up the camera imaging algorithms in my phone.)

Image

Those with sharp eyes will spot the fact that two 4m lengths of guttering won't be enough to get away with jut one joint. :(

The guttering slips nicely up and underneath.

Now your suggestions please.

I'd planned to fix lengths of batten along the ringbeam at the right slope (1 in 500) and then to cookie-cut supports (all the same size) for the actual guttering. I was then going to fix the horizontal underside piece for the outside boxwork to the same batten. Only trouble is that means that the boxwork will also slope down so what to do ?
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby 9fingers » 21 Jun 2020, 11:54

Will most people even notice? -

1:500 is 20mm in 10m

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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 21 Jun 2020, 13:14

9fingers wrote:Will most people even notice? -

1:500 is 20mm in 10m

Bob


I thought about that. But I'm thinking that if you have a horizontal edge fairly close (which I have) then it might be more noticeavle ?

Still got a water leak . And what came before has really screwed up part of the ceiling. :(
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby 9fingers » 21 Jun 2020, 16:02

EPDM is very good and reliable?

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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 21 Jun 2020, 16:05

9fingers wrote:EPDM is very good and reliable?

Bob


And very, very black.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby Robert » 21 Jun 2020, 18:51

A cursory search suggest you can paint EPDM if you clean it first and use the right stuff. So it could be white.

and if I understand your supports correctly why not make them say 25mm less in height and screw a rectangle on to the side to get the final depth and have the undersides on a horizontal line.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 21 Jun 2020, 21:31

Robert wrote:.....
and if I understand your supports correctly why not make them say 25mm less in height and screw a rectangle on to the side to get the final depth and have the undersides on a horizontal line.


The advantage of having a batten all the way down along the side is that one can screw the horizontal base anywhere.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 21 Jun 2020, 21:54

:idea: :eusa-doh:

I can't make all the supports the same height and rely on the batten for my level because the guttering goes all the way round. So I've started at the corner in the photo but the gutter drops by 16mm down the long side, then turns the corner and drops another 8mm. Same going round the other way. Chances are the outer 'skin' won't meet up ? Dunno..gut feel says that regardless of which direction, they should meet at the same level at the downpipe.

Maybe better to treat the two separately I think That way I can guarantee the 'skin' will meet up properly at each corner.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby Robert » 21 Jun 2020, 23:11

Two other thoughts...
Given the long length of runs will it cope with the expansion and contraction from frosty to hot in the sun?

and instead of lots of vertical pieces of board sit the gutter on top of a continuous or near continuous run of joist timber. Width to suit mounting your fascia and still with your batten underneath. Got to be easier to set out a run of timber than position lots of custom panels. better screw fixing options too.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby RogerS » 22 Jun 2020, 06:42

Robert wrote:Two other thoughts...
Given the long length of runs will it cope with the expansion and contraction from frosty to hot in the sun?


True but no difference surely from guttering on a house ?

Robert wrote:and instead of lots of vertical pieces of board sit the gutter on top of a continuous or near continuous run of joist timber. Width to suit mounting your fascia and still with your batten underneath. Got to be easier to set out a run of timber than position lots of custom panels. better screw fixing options too.


Expensive. Plus I'll be waiting for ages to get it delivered. Plus awkward to fit ? Any fixing has to also support all the weight of that joist. Bloody long screws. Coach bolts? Lot of faff, IMO TBH. I agree about 'better screw fixings' but easy enough to mark up the position on the fascia where they are. Chalk line will sort out the line to follow.
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Re: Orangerie guttering

Postby Robert » 22 Jun 2020, 09:40

RogerS wrote:
True but no difference surely from guttering on a house ?



Yours is boxed in all round so it will probably get hotter and the corners can't move. I know the joints are made with expansion in mind but was just wondering if they can cope in that situation.
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