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What is it and how do I redo it...

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What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby TrimTheKing » 07 Jan 2021, 14:43

We’ve got a large, heavy oak dining table which over the years the finish has taken a bit of a battering in a few areas so needs re-finishing I think.

Firstly I haven’t a clue what it’s finished in. It got a reasonable sheen to it so looks like some kind of varnish but it’s so thin it’s hard to tell.

Is there any way to tel from the pics?

Secondly, if we can identify the finish how would you good folks go about re-finishing it with the minimal effort?

The edges of the top are fine so it’s only the top that needs doing. Would I sand/scrape off the top only and redo that?

I’m very inexperienced with refinishing so any advice much appreciated.

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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby novocaine » 07 Jan 2021, 15:01

I'd wax it as is. :)

but if you want to go to the effort then ROS the top and then oil and wax it. :)
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby TrimTheKing » 07 Jan 2021, 15:17

It's neither oil nor wax on it right now though so ideally I'd ROS it and put back on whatever it was, but how the F do I work out what it was...
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Raymedullary » 07 Jan 2021, 15:30

Wax and oak have always gone very much hand in hand. However Looking at it I would say its had polyurethane or cellulose and maybe a casual waxing over time.
To bring it back I would suggest giving it a light rub down with fine silicone carbide to even things up (steer clear of using wire wool in case it gets into the grain and stains it) then give it a few wipes with danish oil (or whatever tung/veg oil product is in your possession, they are all effectively the same)
Last edited by Raymedullary on 07 Jan 2021, 15:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Woodbloke » 07 Jan 2021, 15:35

If it was a commercial table from a furniture outlet (OFL f'rintance?...just kidding, don't want to be banned :lol: ) it was probably a wafer thin, sprayed on, two part cat lacquer which was wafer thin and has now gone 'through' :eusa-whistle:
If it were me, I'd strip of the old finish and apply one of the tinted Osmo finishes, but I'm not sure which one - Rob
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby novocaine » 07 Jan 2021, 15:55

as it's oak, stay well away from anything steel in rubbing it down.
ROS with 120-400-600 grit, do the sides too so it all matches.

I'd still just wax it as is, the wax will sit on the thin poly (which is what I reckon it is as that's what is on the bro in laws table that matches yours although his is somewhat newer) and be fine on the worn out bits too.

keep the character. :)
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2021, 16:09

That is definitely a hard varnish on top as said above.

It's a nice practical table and I would strip the top and the edges with a ROS + vacuum. Depending on what tool you have that is no more than 2 hours work. I would do it in the kitchen where it is - but I use a Deros and dust collection is almost total.

Then I would wipe over with white spirit just dampening a cloth to get rid of all dust residue and grease from your fingers, and then apply a Fiddes hard wax oil with a paint pad, very sparingly, and wipe off. De-nib with flour paper, quick rub over with the spirit damped cloth and redcoat. It is the wiping off that is critical as that gives you the blemish free finish. You need a lint free cloth - I buy packs of white microfibre cloths for this exact purpose.

You can also use Poly X. But for tables I find Fiddes more durable. The big advantage of either is that (unlike varnish or polyurethane) you don't need to strip the surface again in order to refinish, so you could just quickly wipe another coat on every couple of years.

Nice easy and quick jo that will get you double brownie points.

KR, Adrian
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby TrimTheKing » 07 Jan 2021, 16:42

Thanks chaps. I was literally just looking at the Fiddes hard wax oil a few mins ago so good to see that mentioned.

I did think it was some kind of pre-cat but being so thin wasn't sure so again, good to see that mentioned.

Dave - So what was would you use in this circumstance? I'm tempted to give your option a go first, with a view that if it doesn't do what I want then I can go Adrian's route and it won't take too long as he says.

Doing it in the next couple of weeks, in situ, while the kitchen is being sorted is the best idea too.

Adrian - Paint pad? Flour paper?

Paint pad as in this kind of thing?

And flour paper as in this, very fine grade abrasive?
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2021, 16:52

Yes Mark. However, the pads I use are the professional decorating ones that can be attached to a pole. You can get them from the on-line shops that supply oil. Bear in mind I an doing floors at the moment so I want to cover a big area fast. You can use a brush if you want but pant pads are better as you really want to get a fast and even, thin coat. Wiping off is key. Do it in good light.

Flour paper is just very fine grade paper. Just knocks any imperfections off caused by dust etc and gives a professional finish. Cheap as chips at decorators merchants.

Oh and with paint pads, they are an absolute pig to clean. Two or three goes in shallow white spirit in a tray, pressing out the residue each time. Dry on absorbent paper. Once they dry hard they are useless. For doing your table I would probably wrap in clingfilm after first use as this will keep it supple for the second coat the next day.

A
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Cabinetman » 07 Jan 2021, 16:57

As I said elsewhere this morning, don’t breathe the fumes from Fiddes, toluene and benzene are not good for you!
I haven’t heard of flour paper for years, didn’t know you could still get it, there are some extremely good de nibbers on the market nowadays, and when they’re worn out they’re even better. I like paint pads but I haven’t seen them in that shape before, brilliant for emulsioning. also good for polyurethane varnish over very large areas. - floors. Ian
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2021, 16:59

The nylon pads are also great for de-nibbing. Selection from this place.

https://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/pr ... s-and-mops
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2021, 17:06

Here is the Fiddes safety data sheet for their product. https://fiddes.co.uk/app/uploads/2018/0 ... l-MSDS.pdf. It does not suggest that it is in any way a high hazard product when used sensibly.

Ian - I was not disregarding your advice which makes sense. I am very asthmatic so I am careful with what products I use. I didn't say in my original post but I do ventilate the room, close it off when drying and I do wear a mask when applying. I also wear disposable gloves.

I have never had any ill effects from Fiddes or Osmo, from a breathing or allergy perspective, but of course I am not using it day in / day out.

Kind regards

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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Andyp » 07 Jan 2021, 17:22

I used this stuff on my oak table.

https://www.brewers.co.uk/product/HA4065Q

Cant understand why it is not more popular. Water, heat and kid resistant. Doddle to apply, low odour. I’ve not had to redo mine since first applied in 1994!
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby novocaine » 07 Jan 2021, 17:23

I make my own beeswax so id use that. :) but any hard wax would do. if you intend to go with fiddes (fiddlers, sorry couldn't resist that one) then give it a go with that, the oil won't soak in to the finish but a good buff will leave the wax behind.

I need to do similar to our much loved and charished pine kitchen table (my farther made it when I was a child, it's got notches in the side where I attacked it with a dinner knife, it's split a bit and it's started to cup, I don't care, it's perfect to me) and will most likely sand it with the ROS then wax it, I might fill the cuts with epoxy first so it preserves the history.

I'm from a different background, I've never heard of flour paper, we called it 1500-2000 grit wet and dry and denibbing was called flatting. :)
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2021, 17:48

Ha - where I was brought up, wet and dry could be just as fine, but was always used for metal. My dad was an engineer and somehow we always had plenty of wet and dry and stacks of emery cloth at home :o

I suspect that flour paper, though readily available, has largely been superseded by the numerous grades of 3M pads and their clones. It's brilliant stuff - I use three grades of it to recondition stainless steel surfaces.
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby RogerS » 07 Jan 2021, 18:52

Mark...check out RestExpress for all your requirements. A G Woodcare are also good although I have had a couple of issues with their supply over the years.

3M abrasive sheets are the dogs. Also Hermes. Avoid any paper from the sheds, Screwfix et al.

Go and buy Ian Hosker's book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Woodf ... umyield-20. It is superb. In it he offers this method to work out the original finish

....
It's a 5 step process to identify the finish

1 Does the finish soften with Meths FRENCH POLISH OR SPIRIT VARNISH
Not softened ...go to Step 2

2 Does the finish soften with white spirit ...yes go to step 3
Not softened ...go to step 4

3 Does the finish feel waxy and smears when rubbed with a finger; will scrape off when scratched with a finger.....WAX
Surface feels oily smooth but will not smear or scrape off with fingernail OIL

4 If scraped with blade of sharp knife, finish will produce tiny flakes with some dust POLYURETHANR VARNISH
If scraped with blade of sharp knife, finish produces a white dust Go to 5

5 Will soften with cellulose thinners NITROCELLULOSE LACQUER
Will not soften with cellulose thinners CATALYSED LACQUER
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby TrimTheKing » 07 Jan 2021, 19:43

Thanks Roger, will take a look.
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Mike G » 07 Jan 2021, 19:44

I'd bet Roger's house on it being a varnish, and I'd simply clean it up, get off the worst, and apply some more. No way would I use a wax, hard, oily, or otherwise. And unless there was a really good reason which I can't see in the photos, I wouldn't be stripping back to bare wood either. A quick clean up and rub down, a wipe over with white spirit, then start on the wiping varnish regime for 4 or 5 days.

Saying that, if it is a poly varnish, you need to break through the top coat everywhere, as poly varnish is hard to successfully over-coat.

Having said all that quite emphatically, let me add the caveat that I am as capable of stuffing up a finish as any woodworker on the planet, and my narrow range of techniques was honed as much out of ignorance as out of failure. So take my supposed certainty with a pinch of salt.
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Mike G » 07 Jan 2021, 19:50

RogerS wrote:......Go and buy Ian Hosker's book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Woodf ... umyield-20. It is superb.......


I think you may have been the one whose recommendation I followed in buying this a while back, albeit a different edition. It is excellent, although somewhat tedious reading. It was some absolute gems within it, such as the passage you quote.......but the whole subject is bedevilled with terminological inconsistency. One person's X is another person's Y. Brand names have slid in and got mixed up with category names. It's a minefield, and another reason why my range of techniques is contracting rather than expanding.
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2021, 19:54

4 or 5 days to do a kitchen table Mike (allowing a day to dry per coat).

A ROS will whip that lot off in no time. Then there is no compromise to the finish quality and it will be back in action within 2 days. The whole job, including two coats and wiping off, should take no more than 3 hours of actual work - assuming good ROS with dust extractor and mesh abrasives.
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Mike G » 07 Jan 2021, 19:58

Yeah, I reckon on half that working time, perhaps, but a longer time spent sitting watching varnish dry. :lol: It's worth it, because you wouldn't have to touch it again for years.
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2021, 20:02

Cool, in the meantime his wife leaves him because she hasn't had a kitchen table for 5 days and the kids are spilling lunch on the sofa. :lol:
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby droogs » 07 Jan 2021, 20:07

Test a spot with Acetone. If it does not soften or start to dissolve then you have a cellulose based finish, if it does then it is a poly based finish.

Cellulose only dissolves in very specific fluids like aqueous sodium hydroxide. It is basically inert to the usual liquids woodies use for finishes - obvious really as you don't want your project to melt as you paint it
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby novocaine » 07 Jan 2021, 20:26

I was trained by an wise man from the darkest of norfolk. He showed me many great things and with the powers of mediation and a mixture of special herbs took me to my spirit bench. The bench spoke to me, passing on the wisdom of many ages. I learned how to tell finishes by touch and taste alone, using smell i can tell you how it was applied. He showed me how to tell the name of the person who applied the finish, but this must remain a secret (for no other reason than it involves slapping your talwacker around).

If you wish to know these ancient techniques you must wander in the frozen wastelands of norwich, bath in the magically waters of Yarmouth and seek the wisdom of the 10 toed man (something of an oddity in the area).
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Re: What is it and how do I redo it...

Postby Mike G » 07 Jan 2021, 20:33

novocaine wrote:.....a wise man from the darkest of norfolk.....


You lost me right there..... :lol: :lol:
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