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Is wood thicker in trees?

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Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby justaskin » 10 Jun 2016, 07:07

I apologise to all who took offence. I have edited out the original blog



MOD EDIT: Please note that Richard has voluntarily deleted his post and this is not as a result of any action by the moderation team. Bob
Last edited by justaskin on 11 Jun 2016, 06:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby 9fingers » 10 Jun 2016, 09:44

In the opinion of this moderator, this post is right on the margins of acceptability according to the rules.

I am in two minds whether or not to let it run. For now we will see how it progresses but please think hard about your responses with respect to the rules. Maybe we can have a sensible discussion on what is an important issue.

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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Halo Jones » 10 Jun 2016, 11:03

I think it should at least be moved from the General Woodworking section!
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby 9fingers » 10 Jun 2016, 12:09

Halo Jones wrote:I think it should at least be moved from the General Woodworking section!


Good point! I missed the wood for the trees earlier :oops:
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Mike G » 10 Jun 2016, 12:36

I won't get into the referendum debate here, but the individual winners, in my view, from the EU debate on ITV last night were Gisella Stuart, (calm, sensible, polite throughout) and Boris (better than expected). Amber Rudd got angry and emotional every time she spoke. Andrea Leadson was accident prone but almost anonymous. The big losers? Angela Eagle. What a miserable, angry, shouty, pointy person she proved to be. Finally the insufferable whiny Nicola Sturgeon with her head-nodding and voice-raising to emphasise when she wanted applause, and her utter inability to finish on time. The presenter should have done better with keeping them on subject, and keeping them to time. The whole thing was pure torture.
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby chataigner » 10 Jun 2016, 15:40

Speaking as a "european" in the sense that I live in France but have brit nationality, I stand to lose a lot if the UK pulls out - or would it just be England ? Health care depends on reciprocal agreements across the EU and these might not survive a Brexit. Also my pensions are paid in sterling, but my expenses are in euro, so the exchange rate, which has already suffered from the uncertainty, is very important to me.

As for whether the UK economy would be better or worse, there seem to be too many unknowns to be able to predict the outcome. Deregulation would be great, but will a non-EU UK actually deregulate ? Can you really see the health and safety police reducing the burden of compliance just because the EU would no longer be calling the shots ? I have my doubts.

Personally I support the idea of a united Europe, but it needs to be democratic. Direct elections to a parliament that actually calls the shots, no appointed commissioners, no national vetos, a single europe wide civil service responsible to elected ministers like in national governments at present. THe USA managed it (albeit after a civil war) why can't europe ?
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Rod » 10 Jun 2016, 16:39

I make a point of not watching any of it.
Already made up my mind and voted.

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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Mike G » 10 Jun 2016, 16:44

Rod wrote:.....Already made up my mind and voted........


:lol: Vote early, and vote often.... :lol:
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Tusses » 10 Jun 2016, 16:46

Me too ..
I made up my mind years ago ..
never thought there would be a chance to vote ! ..
but it came and I did ..
not interested in what "they" have to say ..
wouldn't believe any of it anyway !

Done and dusted .. just have to wait and see what happens next :-)
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby firedfromthecircus » 10 Jun 2016, 19:00

chataigner wrote:Speaking as a "european" in the sense that I live in France but have brit nationality, I stand to lose a lot if the UK pulls out - or would it just be England ?


It wouldn't just be England regardless of how the votes stack up. If the other three 'countries' in the United Kingdom all voted remain but the overall majority based on English votes was leave then the other three get dragged out against their will. Of course, it's important to leave in defence of democracy apparently!

But the main reason I quoted you is to ask if you know what will happen to Brits abroad like yourself if we do vote leave? Would you be allowed to continue living in France?
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby chataigner » 10 Jun 2016, 20:52

firedfromthecircus wrote:
chataigner wrote:Speaking as a "european" in the sense that I live in France but have brit nationality, I stand to lose a lot if the UK pulls out - or would it just be England ?


It wouldn't just be England regardless of how the votes stack up. If the other three 'countries' in the United Kingdom all voted remain but the overall majority based on English votes was leave then the other three get dragged out against their will. Of course, it's important to leave in defence of democracy apparently!

But the main reason I quoted you is to ask if you know what will happen to Brits abroad like yourself if we do vote leave? Would you be allowed to continue living in France?


There is no precedent, we simply dont know. One more huge uncertainty. It would be foolish of France to reject the brit residents. Mostly retired, they spend in France without costing the french economy anything in pensions which come from the UK - however, common sense does not always apply in politics.
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby 9fingers » 10 Jun 2016, 22:13

Another vote cast here, posted last week and largely ignoring the media hype and the frankly disgraceful behaviour of most of the key "players" in twisting what few facts exist and making up the rest.

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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby RogerS » 11 Jun 2016, 07:26

I wonder what the turnout will be? Interesting slant on 'fixing (?)' the polls by rushing through a change to the law to extend the time available for voter registration. My thoughts on that are 'Too late, mate, you've had plenty of time to register'.

There has been a lengthy thread over on UKW with some excellent posts - particularly from EricTheViking who has been campaigning to get out for a very long time and has done some very good research and has made some excellent points.

For example, I hadn't realised that the European arrest warrant meant that you or I could be summarily arrested and sent to another EU country without so much as a by-your-leave. The only thing that the UK authorities would do would be to check the paperwork was correct. There is also the inherent difference between Napoleonic Law - thou shalt not do anything unless we've said you can - as practised by the majority of the EU countries and UK Law - thou canst do anything unless we've said you can't.

Much talk has also been made about whether or not the EU represents its citizens - ie has elected members. The Remain campaign point to the MEPs - quietly forgetting that the people that really call the shots are the Commissioners who are not elected. For example, the MEPs voted to end that waste of time and money exercise in moving between Brussels and Strasbourg but were vetoed by the French.
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Andyp » 11 Jun 2016, 09:35

I can't help thinking that the reason those in Brussels are so keen for the UK to stay in the EU is that the UK is worth more to them then vice versa. I reckon there is also a very real fear of the electorate (not the politicians) in other EU countries also demanding the right to vote on remaining within the EU.

The grass is always greener of course and with so many impossible to answer questions so much of the voting will be done on personalities. No matter what the outcome and who forms the next government the opposition will be using the result of the referendum as an excuse to lambaste the government for years to come.

I have felt for many years the EU has suffered from what I learnt at school as the dis-economies of scale. I do not believe it was ever envisaged by the founding few that it would grow so large and as a result be impossible to manage. Given the chance I am sure Greece, Italy and perhaps Spain would be very close to voting out.

The Euro was always an accident awaiting to happen with a blind eye being turned to those countries that could not even meet the membership criteria on day one still allowed to join. Cultural differences, north to south and east to west and attitudes to social care and public spending were always going to result in conflict. And the ability of Germany to profit by selling goods to Greece who they (Germany) must have known, or at least should have known, was borrowing money at low interest rates that it could pay back demonstrated to me how self serving the whole EU project is to the axis that is Germany/France.

Like David as a Brit living abroad I have a vested interest but the UK never joined the Euro, and is unlikely to do so even if it remains in the EU, so currency fluctuations were always going to have an impact on pensions ( I am not drawing one yet, fortunately). And of course there were Brits living abroad before the EU, although not in the same numbers, and as has been said above the UK and the Brits abroad are an important part of the economies of all of the western European countries.
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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Pinch » 14 Jun 2016, 20:20

Hello Peeps.

I've just posted this on the other forum - WUK. I understand if it comes across a bit heavy, but it's how I see things and without prejudice.

Looking back through Germany’s history, there’s Otto Von Bismarck who was considered the founder of the German Empire. For nearly three decades he shaped the fortunes of Germany, from 1862 to 1873 as prime minister of Prussia and from 1871 to 1890 as Germany's first Chancellor. He was a master of complex politics at home. He created the first welfare state in the modern world, with the goal of gaining working class support that might otherwise go to his Socialist enemies. Bismarck distrusted democracy and ruled through a strong, well-trained bureaucracy with power in the hands of a traditional Junker elite that comprised the landed nobility. Under Wilhelm I, Bismarck largely controlled domestic and foreign affairs, until he was removed by young Kaiser Wilhelm II in 1890. Bismarck, a Junker himself, was strong-willed, outspoken and sometimes overbearing, but he could also be polite, charming and witty. Occasionally he displayed a violent temper, and he kept his power by melodramatically threatening resignation time and again, which frightened Wilhelm I. He possessed not only a long-term national and international vision but also the short-term ability to juggle complex developments.

WW1 was triggered because Franz Ferdinand was assassinated and Austria blamed Serbia for the Archduke’s death. Germany naturally sided with Austria and was waiting for the green-light to declare war on Serbia. War was declared and Germany also declared war on Russia and France during August 1914 - just weeks after the assassination of Ferdinand. France, Britain, Ireland and Russia formed alliance and WW1 began. We all know the outcome.

A young man by the name of Adolf Hitler was also a visionary and after WW1, he started to attract an audience of vulnerable people with his ever growing dictatorship, eventually forming the Nazi Party. By 1933, the Nazi Party was the largest elected party in the German Reichstag, which led to Hitler's appointment as Chancellor.

The ‘New Order’ or the ‘New Order of Europe’ was the political order which Nazi Germany wanted to impose on the conquered areas under its dominion. The establishment of the New Order had already begun long before the start of WW2, but was publicly proclaimed by Adolf Hitler in 1941:

“The year 1941 will be, I am convinced, the historical year of a great European New Order.”

Again, we all know the outcome of Hitler’s vision.

Today, we have the European Union and who’s at the helm? You got it – Germany. Has Germany’s mentality really altered that much? Are we at the mercy of another future outbreak of manipulative dictatorship, or has it already silently begun - hmmmm, very clever.

Ask yourself: Where is it really going if we stay in the EU?

We've already surrendered 60+% of our backbone to the EU. Do we want to surrender the other 40%?

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Re: Is wood thicker in trees?

Postby Pinch » 24 Jun 2016, 23:44

100 years ago today, the Battle of the Somme started.
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