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Brexit

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Brexit

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2016, 10:57

Wow! Just, wow!

Interesting times ahead. Don't want to open up a mass debate (and I'm sure we can keep it civil), but very interesting times…

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Re: Brexit

Postby Woodbloke » 24 Jun 2016, 11:09

When Trim becomes the new PM in October, I've been promised the Ministery of Silly Walks :lol: - Rob
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Re: Brexit

Postby Tusses » 24 Jun 2016, 11:19

well .. new opportunities are ahead ... already there is a demand for Dummies Rattles and soothers , as many have been thrown out of the pram !
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Re: Brexit

Postby Andyp » 24 Jun 2016, 11:45

As I may have said elsewhere one side will be blaming the other for years to come.

The media have got themselves something to endlessly talk about for days to come which will bore the pants off most people and they certainly wont let the facts get in the way of a good story.

When I moved here 9 years ago. the pound was buying about 1.5 euros since then it went down to near parity. This mornings falls are dramatic only because of their speed, give it a while to settle down before drawing any occlusions one way or the other. I do not think that most of us will feel any different in 2, 5 or even 10 years time.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2016, 12:25

Agree Andy, my biggest disappointment today, apart from the result, is Cameron stepping down. Like him or not, he's the most moderate among them and the only real credible choice IMHO, so even though he was defeated on this I would have liked to see him suck that up and pledge to do the absolute best to make the best of the situation.

Can understand why his heart might not be in that though..

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Re: Brexit

Postby StevieB » 24 Jun 2016, 12:27

How many people drove home from work in a German car, pored a Danish Beer or French wine in their Swedish kitchen and then rooted for a leave vote while watching their Japanese TV?

Whatever the outcome last night, the devil will now be in the detail and we will have to see whether practicalities can overcome sentiment in how we (and Europe) manage the separation. On the one hand it could be relatively painless and mutually agreeable (within reason), on the other hand we could face Scottish independence, Irish calls for unity, high trade tariffs and tit-for-tat squabbling with EU partners. Although there are predictions of further independence votes from other European countries, it is also possible this shock is enough to induce meaningful reform in the remaining 27 members and hold the rest of the EU tighter together, at least in the short term.

May we live in interesting times......

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Re: Brexit

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2016, 12:50

Indeed Steve, could be the start of real EU change, or the beginning of the end for the EU as we know it. Soooo many variables at play now, interesting times indeed, just hope we manage to get it right.

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Re: Brexit

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2016, 13:00

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Re: Brexit

Postby Andyp » 24 Jun 2016, 13:01

One of the many scenarios is that the EU has received a kick up the backside, changes for the good and the UK are left outside, again. Good or bad? Who knows.

Also sad to here that slippery Ms Sturgeon proclaiming that there will be another referendum north of the border, when SHE feels the time is right.

What is with sea creatures and Scottish leaders?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Halo Jones » 24 Jun 2016, 13:22

Soooo many variables at play now, interesting times indeed, just hope we manage to get it right.


There is nothing left for us to get right. We have just left! It is up to the rest of Europe to get it right now.

I'm off to hide in a cave and pop my head out in a couple of years time :?
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Re: Brexit

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2016, 13:54

I mean hope we get our exit and rebuilding right.

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Re: Brexit

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2016, 13:56

And we haven't left anything yet. We've merely shouted out that we intend to leave, after we've discussed it further. Until article 50 in invoked then nothing has changed, other than lower confidence in the UK markets/economy due to instability.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Halo Jones » 24 Jun 2016, 13:59

Well I see that Sturgeon has just kick started the process to get the paper work ready for IndyRef2. Maybe once Trump has finished building his wall against Mexico Boris will get him in to rebuild Hadrian's wall :lol:
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Re: Brexit

Postby Doug » 24 Jun 2016, 14:26

Personally I think in the 2 years we have to negotiate our exit there won't be a European Union as we see it today, there will be no need to to broker trade deals with the union as the disintegration will be like a house of cards coming down.

During the debate I listened to an interesting discussion on radio 4, it would appear that dissent within other European countries is far greater than that of Britian & we were being looked upon a the straw that could break the donkeys back, time will tell....

Interesting times indeed
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Re: Brexit

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2016, 14:38

That's my thinking to Doug, France, Italy and others equally disgruntled so this could well just be the start…

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Re: Brexit

Postby Robert » 24 Jun 2016, 14:39

I was talking to an English speaking German the other day. He said the German nature would be to punish us for spoiling their game. Kind of fits with one of my reasons for joining the out vote.

We shall see.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2016, 14:42

Robert wrote:I was talking to an English speaking German the other day. He said the German nature would be to punish us for spoiling their game. Kind of fits with one of my reasons for joining the out vote.

We shall see.


And that's another thing, but if other countries follow then they may have no power to punish anyone…

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A very Long One.

Postby Peter Gee » 24 Jun 2016, 18:20

Having lived and worked in Italy for the past 15 years, after 40-odd years working in the UK since before the UK was in the EEC, here is my two cents worth.

It is rather sad to that so much anger and hatred has been stirred up in the UK over the EU, immigrants and foreigners of all kinds. It is rather reminiscent of the situation in Europe in the 1920s, which saw the rise of Fascism and, in Germany, Nazism. Hatred of other people for no other reason than they are ‘other’ people. I would have hoped that humankind would have moved beyond that base level of fear and hatred by now.

The EU has been a boon for the UK since the UK joined the then EEC back in 1974. Back then, times were not good at all, with massive unemployment, homelessness and poor living conditions for huge numbers of people across the UK. Oil and Thatcher soon changed all that - not for the best, I’m afraid. But the press had already started their campaign of lies, misrepresentation and exaggeration against the EEC, leading to such nonsense as “rickety ladders” and “bent bananas” becoming the accepted ‘proof’ of European nastiness.

In fact, Boris Johnson, after he was fired by The Times for fabricating stories, was sent by the Daily Telegraph as their European Correspondent - which led to some extraordinarily ‘creative’ stories about the EEC - all of them fabricated by Johnson in a local bar which suited the Telegraph agenda perfectly (remember that the Barclay twins actually live in a British tax haven, so they certainly had no desire in the upcoming Europe-wide legislation against tax havens).

The far right political groups also experienced, after the Thatcher decimation of British industry (apart from the munitions and banking industries, of course), a upswell of support across, generally speaking, the poorer parts of England and Wales. These groups were always fiercely nationalist and, to a ‘man’, wanted the UK to leave the EEC/EU as part of their fascist agendas. To this end, they also were more than happy to lie, exaggerate and misrepresent anything that they thought might inflame people to support them.

The mainstream political establishment also changed, with, firstly, a remarkably right-wing Tony Blair leading “New Labour” to election victories with much help from the right-wing press, resulting in wars and destruction across swathes of the Middle East and many African countries as well. Cameron did nothing that any other PR wouldn’t do - stir up tensions by way of blame and attack, taking his cues from the press barons that supported him.

The press. People in the UK read and believe their chosen newspaper as though they are supporting a football team. This has led the newspapers with falling circulations to court potential readers with ever increasing rhetoric and misleading opinion - the Express is the most obvious example of this trend, although Desmond was only following Murdoch’s clear lead with the Sun.

The nonsense continues to this day, even after these press barons have achieved their objectives by removing any controls on their activities which stem from the EU. How long before we see Murdoch actually succeed in his intention of taking over full ownership of Sky News, eh? Will the Barclays still fear EU intervention into their tax affairs? Will Rothermere keep his many trust funds away from the prying eyes of financial oversight authorities? I expect they will be sleeping comfortably in their beds tonight.

There is absolutely no point at all in my pointing out the many, many lies that have been bandied about by the “brevet” people, and more than those spread by Ukip supporters over the last few years (20 of them, actually). The time is past. The EU will survive. The only political party in Italy screaming out for a referendum on the EU is Lega Nord - similar in size and popularity to the BNP in the UK - the BNP now, that is. Cinque Stelle (M5S) want a referendum on the Euro membership of Italy, but not the EU membership. They are the bed-fellows of Ukip in the EU Parliament, by the way.

The thing that still rather surprises me is that so many people in the UK sen to have a problem being that the EU is now 27 separate nations, each with rights and each with a veto. Every country has elected MEPs in the European Parliament. Every country have their own elected government ministers in the Council of Ministers. Every country has an allotted number of Commissioners which the national government proposes to both the Council of Ministers and then to the European Parliament where they are voted for (or against) by the elected MEPs - hardly a democracy deficit to be seen.

But, hey, The UK is now out. There is little left to say now, bar the shouting (which is certainly still happening). The EU must now protect the interests of the remaining 27 nations over the very narrow interests of the UK - obviously. This will mean that the UK will no longer control its own destiny, as it has already controlled its destiny to leave. The leaving will be much quicker than some people, such as Boris Johnson, would care for, but it is obviously far more important for the EU to protect the interests of its active membership, rather than the interests of an ex-member. But many people seem not to understand this fact. Similarly, there is a great gold in understanding with regard to the fact that the 500 million people living in those 27 countries all have, individually, the same rights to their wishes being heard as did the 60 million in the UK.

It’s tough running a democracy when everyone thinks that only their particular interests should be served.

So, Purchase Tax; here we come again? If anyone else here actually experienced the system, they will know how much of a godsend VAT actually was when it was introduced - despite the whinging of the usual press sections.

Anyway - have a good weekend.
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Re: Brexit

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2016, 18:29

Broadly speaking I agree with you - but very broadly as I have no wish to stir up a hornet's nest on some of your points with which I disagree.

Reading people's posts on various forums, although immigration played a part, for many it was the view that the EU was driven by unelected people. They wanted to regain sovereignty as they saw it.

Also, it is unfair to imply that anyone concerned about immigration is automatically a racist. That is simply not the case. As you say, you've not lived here for a long time but in many parts of the country, there simply is not the infrastructure to support the unfettered immigration. 2 million is the figure, I believe, over the last ten years IIRC. There are parts of London, for example, where you have to wait three weeks to get a doctors appointment. Some schools are bursting at the seams and teachers are struggling to cope with the many different languages that are being spoken. And that is what has driven many people to vote to Leave.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Peter Gee » 24 Jun 2016, 18:48

RogerS wrote:it is unfair to imply that anyone concerned about immigration is automatically a racist.


I didn't say that, Roger. What I said was that people have been misled by the press to believe stories that are simply untrue. Immigration is not a problem in isolation, despite what the famously hate-filled Sun, Mail and Express might tell you. People are flocking into Europe because their homes, their jobs, their lives have been totally destroyed by 'foreigners'. Thos 'foreigners' must, clearly, also include the military forces that destroyed their countries almost entirely, as well as killing family members, etc. To try to isolate cause and effect is something that the press are always very happy to do in order to create a sensational headline or two.

We now have huge numbers of people trying to make homes in Europe. We should be, together, tackling the growing problem in a sensible and thoughtful way; but we don't. We think only of our own situations, fuelled by the fear.inducing stories carried in our favourite press. It hasn't worked, has it. There are still huge numbers of immigrants arriving on our shores daily. "I'm all right, Jack" would seem to be the favoured reaction from people, then fuelled by the fear of the "Muslim Menace" (suitable Sun headline there).

The EU is just an administration, not a ruling authority. The EU, as you have been taught, simply does not exist. If a new ruling comes to us, it is because it was started off by an elected representative of one of the countries in it - maybe not your country, but by someones country - democracy, in other words. Why it is that no one has tackled the real problems causing the exodus of people from lands destroyed by either "coalition" forces, or radicalised Islamacists is beyond comprehension. But it seems that politicians all across, particularly, northern Europe are thinking far more about their re-election chances than actually solving a real problem that is affecting us all.

Short term gain for politicians and greedy self interest from media owners. They should be the real targets of people's anger.


ETA.

Sorry, I had to break off then for a light dinner.

There are huge numbers of people trying to do something about their ruined lives, yes. They tend to be foreigners, yes. However, there are very few that are EU citizens and there is no mechanism whereby anyone can get, as the British press like to claim, an "EU Passport" to enable them to enter the UK. The only country in the EU that has a method whereby people can actually buy a passport is Malta - and they charge around €1million for one - hardly something a destitute immigrant hanging on to the sides of a rotten old boat would be able to afford, eh?

Fear-mongering is rife in the increasingly xenophobic and right-wing European press, which some people with political dreams of power are more than happy to exploit for their own purposes.

Blame the press and check the stories they feed you. Not check them with another right-wing rag, but against foreign press and non-aligned blogs, even (although most are appalling, I must admit).

Anyway, Must go now..
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Re: Brexit

Postby Robert » 24 Jun 2016, 19:22

That's an awful lot of words and I probably haven't absorbed all of them as I quickly read them.

I haven't read a newspaper in around 15 years and I don't watch political discussion programs on TV. I voted out based on my experience running a small business amongst other things directly experienced. You can't blame the result on the media. It's things people have seen for themselves that influenced the vote.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Pinch » 24 Jun 2016, 20:24

I too voted Leave and I watched the first 13 results come in last night. I must say, I wasn't feeling confident especially as the experts were predicting a 'Remain Victory' - experts eh tut tut!.. However, I think the Newcastle and Sunderland results were a taste of things to come. But, I went to bed and was woken by Mrs P at 7am saying "Leave has won." I lept out of bed and ordered Mrs P to put the kettle on (not literally of course) and was then glued to the TV until 11am.

The future holds exciting times and 'glorious opportunities' (nice one Boris) are just around the corner.

Peter Gee, your sentence "This will mean that the UK will no longer control its own destiny, as it has already controlled its destiny to leave." is utter rubbish - as mentioned on WUK.

I just wish the exit could be much quicker. The faster our shackles are severed from that dictatorship world of bureaucratic control freaks, the better.

Positive. Focus. Bigger picture. Exciting stuff.

Beer night tonight.

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Re: Brexit

Postby kirkpoore1 » 24 Jun 2016, 23:24

Guys, I don't have a dog in this fight. But I wish you'd have helped a brother out and arrested Trump for fraud or something while he was over there...

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Re: Brexit

Postby Halo Jones » 25 Jun 2016, 00:35

Guys, I don't have a dog in this fight. But I wish you'd have helped a brother out and arrested Trump for fraud or something while he was over there...


He landed in Scotland - he still has a couple of walls to build, then we will do something!

Seriously, from a Scottish/British perspective I think this is a huge, huge mistake. I completely understand why people have voted the way they did but this was not the way to change things. I bet Putin did a merry jig this morning.

I work at a university. My department employs about 1000 people which represent over 100 countries. I think I know someone from every European country. Everyone was ashen faced this morning, me included. I voted to stay in the last Scottish ref but I am afraid I shall have to say cheerio when the next one comes along.

I also have to say that Boris and Gove didn't exactly look over-the-moon this morning. I think they were thinking "sh*t, I didn't mean that to happen. We were only having a laugh, why is everyone taking it so seriously?"

Everything is now just a bit more scary.
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Re: Brexit

Postby justaskin » 25 Jun 2016, 05:56

Hi All

My vote was based on my distaste for the un-elected, un-auditable gravy train in the EU council in Brussels, Strasborg and Luxemborg. Not that it will ever change anything :eusa-violin:

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