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Look - no wires !!

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Look - no wires !!

Postby RogerS » 22 Apr 2017, 16:18

:o

Rather taken with this

Image

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index ... index.html

"The Quinetic wireless switch has a built-in micro energy generator.
The action or pressing the switch, generates enough kinetic energy to create and transmit a radio signal
and switch on/off via a receiver (wireless controller) the lamp or other loads
This solves an age old problem of having to install switch wiring over the past 130 years since
the invention of the light bulb"
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 22 Apr 2017, 16:37

RogerS wrote::o

Rather taken with this

Image

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index ... index.html

"The Quinetic wireless switch has a built-in micro energy generator.
The action or pressing the switch, generates enough kinetic energy to create and transmit a radio signal
and switch on/off via a receiver (wireless controller) the lamp or other loads
This solves an age old problem of having to install switch wiring over the past 130 years since
the invention of the light bulb"


Yes they look quite neat. we were discussing them over on UKW a couple of months back.

Have you got one in your hands yet. I'm interested in how they work - no batteries in the switch.
It could use the piezo electric effect but wrong sort of power - very high voltage and minimal current.
It could be the tribo-electric effect which I have played with but difficult to apply selective coding to which this system does have.
or it could be a tiny pm motor geared to the switch mechanism that generates a little bit of power wired as a generator.

One of these might help swmbo but she can only exert a tiny amount of pressure with her fingers and not very quickly (TV remotes can be too much or turn off and back on again!!)

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby Doug » 23 Apr 2017, 08:57

Could this sort of switch be used to switch on something like an extractor? I'm guessing it would take a bit of fancy electrics between the switch & extractor but it would be very handy if it could
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 23 Apr 2017, 09:06

Doug wrote:Could this sort of switch be used to switch on something like an extractor? I'm guessing it would take a bit of fancy electrics between the switch & extractor but it would be very handy if it could

Almost certainly. The receiver unit has a relay and can switch any load within the contact rating.
The USP of the system is that the actuator needs no wires or batteries.
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby RogerS » 23 Apr 2017, 09:09

I wonder how they code each switch to be different to any other in the house? The range? Turning off your neighbours?
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby Tusses » 23 Apr 2017, 10:24

the data sheet is there ..
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/ ... t_text.pdf

range 30m indoors, 160m outdoors
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 23 Apr 2017, 10:36

RogerS wrote:I wonder how they code each switch to be different to any other in the house? The range? Turning off your neighbours?


It is a 32 bit code so plenty of differs to avoid duplicates and the possible time clash with neighbours is covered by 3 repeats of the code. That is is all standard well established stuff. See my earlier reply regarding the USP which is what makes the system unique AFAIK.

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby RogerS » 25 Apr 2017, 15:21

I've bought a set to play with. Will report back. I'm thinking that I might use the switch in any bathrooms etc.
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 25 Apr 2017, 15:32

RogerS wrote:I've bought a set to play with. Will report back. I'm thinking that I might use the switch in any bathrooms etc.

Good man!
When you operate the switch. Is there any resistance or wirring noises suggesting a gear train spinning a motor a few turns to generate power ?
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby RogerS » 25 Apr 2017, 15:53

Found the people who developed it (I think)

http://www.ebelong.org/ebproductDetail/400.html
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby Tusses » 25 Apr 2017, 16:08

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:I've bought a set to play with. Will report back. I'm thinking that I might use the switch in any bathrooms etc.

Good man!
When you operate the switch. Is there any resistance or wirring noises suggesting a gear train spinning a motor a few turns to generate power ?
Bob


I was also wondering how it worked ! lol .. would piezo be enough do you think ?
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 25 Apr 2017, 16:13

Tusses wrote:
9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:I've bought a set to play with. Will report back. I'm thinking that I might use the switch in any bathrooms etc.

Good man!
When you operate the switch. Is there any resistance or wirring noises suggesting a gear train spinning a motor a few turns to generate power ?
Bob


I was also wondering how it worked ! lol .. would piezo be enough do you think ?


Did you read my earlier post when I discussed techniques? Piezo generates 1000's volts at near zero current. Very difficult to harness to generate a UHF ISM band signal with controlled modulation which will need lowish voltage, a few 100 uA for 100s of mS.

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 25 Apr 2017, 16:29

The patent is here http://www.google.com/patents/WO2013026201A1?cl=en

However it has the usual obfuscation of the detail as in most patent filings and still only refers to a energy acquisition device and rabbits on about the RFID technology that it drives.

RFID is well established and very low cost as used in most bank cards for example. The novelty of this device is the power source that drives the RFID device.

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby Tusses » 25 Apr 2017, 16:31

ah .. missed that .
I seem to remember years ago, a piezo generator idea ,in the heel of a hiking boot, for charging a phone battery or similar.
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby RogerS » 27 Apr 2017, 12:37

The switch action is a click ...just like any other switch..possibly my imagination that the force needed is slightly stronger. (Bob, if you'd like to have a play with them and see if they are OK for your wife then happy to send you a pair to try as it will be a while before I will be using them in anger.

The receiver module is tiny. It comes with a built-in (but accessible) fuse and so needs to be accessible after installation.

Image

I'm surprised that Qinetic aren't breathing down Quinetic's neck for 'passing off'.
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 27 Apr 2017, 12:59

RogerS wrote:The switch action is a click ...just like any other switch..possibly my imagination that the force needed is slightly stronger. (Bob, if you'd like to have a play with them and see if they are OK for your wife then happy to send you a pair to try as it will be a while before I will be using them in anger.

The receiver module is tiny. It comes with a built-in (but accessible) fuse and so needs to be accessible after installation.

Image

I'm surprised that Qinetic aren't breathing down Quinetic's neck for 'passing off'.


That is a kind offer Roger, Thank you. I'll drop you a PM.

I presume the grey wire is an antenna for the receiver? If so, possibly best stretched out away from the power wiring to help the unit sit in the middle of a dipole at radio frequency. Power wiring will all tend to be "earthy" as far as a radio signal will be concerned.

Bob

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 29 Apr 2017, 13:05

Roger kindly sent me these switches to evaluate and generally I'm very impressed.

The outdoor range I measured is in excess of the length of our property - 180 feet and they do what it says on the tin. We also have internal walls made from 3" cinder blocks from 1920s and these are very absorbent of wifi signals at 2.4GHz. These switches work in the 433MHz ISM band and seem to work well from one end of the house to the other - about 15m

As I reported earlier in the thread, the patent concentrates on the power detection and storage solution used to drive the RFID tag. I have discovered that the power generation is performed by a moving magnet and a coil.
Both this and the RFID are well established prior art and so the only thing they can patent is the power storage bit.
I don't think there is any rotary generation simply the use of possibly a rare earth magnet and a coil with a lot of turns of fine wire.

There are a couple of "features" to be aware of.

1) Each time the transmitter is activated the SAME code is sent. This means the receiver cannot tell the difference between on and off, all it understands is to change state.
So if for any reason the command does not get through, the mechanical position of the switch will have changed but the receiver will not. So the OFF position becomes the ON position and vice versa. The same thing can happen in the event of a power failure. If the load is ON when the power fails, then it remains off when the power is re-established.

In nearly all applications, the user will be able to see if the switch has worked and if not simply operate it again. S0ds law being what it is, I have an application where the effect of the switching cannot be immediately seen.

2) Each receiver contains a fuse. This is rated at 10amps for the 6amp load version. This not only conducts power the receiver module itself but also the load.
Two issues here.
A) If the load is a filament lamp then when the lamp blows, there is a good chance the fuse will be taken out and need to be replaced and
B) As the fuse has to be rated at more than enough for the load, it's rating is far too great to protect the receiver circuit .
IMHO a better design would be a low rated fuse for the electronics and the load would best protected by the consumer unit fuse or MCB as normal.

Calling these drawbacks or even snags is too strong a description, just to be aware.

I would have like the relay contacts to have been isolated for one of my applications but one side is permanently connected to line so the output is a switched line to the load. When I come to use them I will possibly open one up and modify it accordingly.

In summary, these look good devices especially for what they were designed for and will get round a number of wiring hassles such as chasing the wall for a cable run and removing the need to run an earth to switch boxes when rewiring to latest regs. The extra cost over a standard switch say £3 Vs £30 (roughly) could well be worth the convenience.
Add to this that multiple switches can operate a single load and a single switch can operate multiple loads all over the house with no wiring opens up a whole load of possibilities that might otherwise be reject on the grounds of wiring complexity.

9.75 stars out of 10 in my book.

Thanks again to Roger for letting me have a play with these.

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby TrimTheKing » 01 May 2017, 09:38

Nice review Bob.

I'm sure I can fine some usage for these...

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby chataigner » 01 May 2017, 10:30

Looks like a great gadget, I will try to think of uses chez moi !

Just a thought on the multiple loads suggestion - given that it functions by change of state rather than distinct on and off signals, if one load gets out of step it will turned on as the others are turned off etc. and I cant see how you could reset the offender except by removing power.
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 01 May 2017, 10:55

chataigner wrote:Looks like a great gadget, I will try to think of uses chez moi !

Just a thought on the multiple loads suggestion - given that it functions by change of state rather than distinct on and off signals, if one load gets out of step it will turned on as the others are turned off etc. and I cant see how you could reset the offender except by removing power.


Each receiver has a master reset function so you can recover from the situation you describe.

However if you get out of step as a result of power failure, then all controllers will be affected so will power up back in step but possibly all out of phase.
Secondly the range is so good you have to work hard to get just one out of step. For my test, I had to wrap the switch in metal foil and then operate it through the foil.

Should not be an issue.

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby chataigner » 01 May 2017, 12:47

Another question Bob - did you measure the receiver power consumption ? Given that it will be powered 24/7 a house full of them could add up to significant consumption ...?
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby RogerS » 01 May 2017, 12:55

chataigner wrote:Another question Bob - did you measure the receiver power consumption ? Given that it will be powered 24/7 a house full of them could add up to significant consumption ...?


I'll put money on it being peanuts.
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby 9fingers » 01 May 2017, 12:59

chataigner wrote:Another question Bob - did you measure the receiver power consumption ? Given that it will be powered 24/7 a house full of them could add up to significant consumption ...?

Sorry I did not measure the power consumption. During my experimentation, I did not notice them warming up at all.
I should receive my order in the next few days so I will make some measurements.

In UK we only pay for watts (real power) and not VA. These sort of low power circuits tend to draw 10s of mA but the power factor is very low and so the real power is minimal but the VA is not.

Do you know if you are billed for Watts or VA in France?

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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby chataigner » 01 May 2017, 14:54

9fingers wrote:
chataigner wrote:Another question Bob - did you measure the receiver power consumption ? Given that it will be powered 24/7 a house full of them could add up to significant consumption ...?

Sorry I did not measure the power consumption. During my experimentation, I did not notice them warming up at all.
I should receive my order in the next few days so I will make some measurements.

In UK we only pay for watts (real power) and not VA. These sort of low power circuits tend to draw 10s of mA but the power factor is very low and so the real power is minimal but the VA is not.

Do you know if you are billed for Watts or VA in France?

Cheers

Bob


Never thought to ask the question. Since most our consumption is essentially resistive for heating water (wash m/c, dishwasher, kettle etc) it doesnt make much difference - but might in the future with other loads - I'll find out.

Thinking about that some more, there are also the freezer and fridge compressors - not high power, but on all the time and probably far from pf1.
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Re: Look - no wires !!

Postby chataigner » 01 May 2017, 16:41

9fingers wrote:
Do you know if you are billed for Watts or VA in France?

Cheers

Bob


Just done the research, it seems domestic customers are only billed for kW, but industrial tarifs are more complex with penalties for average and also peak power factor values.
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