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Tiling Terrace - next problem, drainage mat and edge profile

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 25 Mar 2018, 13:15

I took the trellis down this morning which revealed a little of how the terrace has been laid.

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I think the whole layer above the polythene sheet will have to come up. Incidently there were 3 hibernating newts under that plastic which have been relocated to the leaf pile.

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby 9fingers » 25 Mar 2018, 13:28

I think you are correct Andy. That concrete substrate is far to weak. I'm not sure what the plastic was meant to do other than trap water above it and have the frost crack the then saturated concrete/tiles.

What is the deal with the tiler. Are you providing the stable surface for him to work off. That's going to be loads-a-work.

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 25 Mar 2018, 15:00

Bob, we have engaged a construction company to do all the works. The two terraces (one tiled, one concrete) steps, walls and rendering.
One item on the original quote was the complete removal of the original tiles. Seemed daft to pay them to do a job I could do myself. ;)
We will see on Wednesday what he proposes to do.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Phil » 25 Mar 2018, 15:28

Oh mon cher, quelle f--------!!! :oops: :oops: :oops:


Oh mon cher monsieur, quel amalgame

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby 9fingers » 25 Mar 2018, 15:32

Andyp wrote:Bob, we have engaged a construction company to do all the works. The two terraces (one tiled, one concrete) steps, walls and rendering.
One item on the original quote was the complete removal of the original tiles. Seemed daft to pay them to do a job I could do myself. ;)
We will see on Wednesday what he proposes to do.


Fully understand why you are removing the tiles but he might be expecting an adequate substrate with correct rainwater run-off gradients etc simply to tile over.
However if that were the case I doubt that he would guarantee the his work against cracking

I'd expect him to want to dig out to say 200mm plus, add hardcore, vibrate in to place and say 100mm concrete with reinforcing mesh.
He might also want to use expansion joints given the huge surface area - not sure how to integrate expansion joints and decorative tiling.

Whilst he is digging out, it would be trivial to get him do a drainage trench for you to put a bit of land drain into to sort out the step drainage and fill to the top with hardcore.

good Luck

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 25 Mar 2018, 16:22

He definitely knows the water run off needed sorting. Just looking through the original quote. Nothing about digging out the terrace so I am prepared for a requote. No mention of expansion joints either so that’s on my list too.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby 9fingers » 25 Mar 2018, 16:52

A quick google found this
https://www.thespruce.com/outdoor-tile- ... ts-2132507
Not had time to read it all as I'm cooking dinner but might help
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby RogerS » 25 Mar 2018, 16:53

I can just picture the scenario now.

Summer's last gasp. The sun slowly setting in the West, a slight chill in the air. Perhaps a harbinger of the Autumn to come. Andy and Mrs Andy sitting out on the terrace, enjoying the warmth of the sun, sipping a nice chilled Pinot...

"Darling ? "

" Yes, dear ?"

"I've been thinking ....." :D

Watch the back humping those tiles, Andy
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 25 Mar 2018, 17:21

9fingers wrote:A quick google found this
https://www.thespruce.com/outdoor-tile- ... ts-2132507
Not had time to read it all as I'm cooking dinner but might help
Bob



Thanks Bob, I have been reading too "joints de dilatation" en francais.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 25 Mar 2018, 17:25

RogerS wrote:I can just picture the scenario now.

Summer's last gasp. The sun slowly setting in the West, a slight chill in the air. Perhaps a harbinger of the Autumn to come. Andy and Mrs Andy sitting out on the terrace, enjoying the warmth of the sun, sipping a nice chilled Pinot...

"Darling ? "

" Yes, dear ?"

"I've been thinking ....." :D

Watch the back humping those tiles, Andy


It's always Mrs P that comes out with the "I've been thinking......" line and it is always be that either has to do some work or clear up after her. Ho hum c'est la vie as they say over here.

In fact we had such a moment yesterday... " I've been thinking how much I enjoyed the fish pond we had in the old house".
"Ok dear, right away dear. I'll have it dug before nightfall"
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Rod » 26 Mar 2018, 00:30

If the substructure is very poor as it appears from your preliminary work, why not have a rethink and go for proper slabs or paviours on a new base.


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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 29 Mar 2018, 12:13

Rod wrote:If the substructure is very poor as it appears from your preliminary work, why not have a rethink and go for proper slabs or paviours on a new base.
Rod


Slabs are an option but we are not keen. The small paviours are not at all to our taste at the moment.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 29 Mar 2018, 12:22

The top surface layer is not concrete at all just cement and as can be seen is nearly all off. This will give sufficient room to relay a re-enforced concrete layer, drainage membrane, glue and tiles. Thicker slabs would mean going down still further which because of the roof of the cave is not possible.

For the price of a few beers all the old tiles are gone too. :)

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby 9fingers » 29 Mar 2018, 12:35

That's a good 2 weeks work Andy well done. I would be surprised if your contractor would baulk at that as a starting point.

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 29 Mar 2018, 13:45

In fairness to the contactor Bob, I don't think they baulked at it. It was a case of not knowing how bad it was until the tiles came up. It has cost me a few bob more but I've started so I will have to finish.

Those steps are going to be rebuilt as well with drainage into the conveniently placed drain below them.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Robert » 29 Mar 2018, 17:08

Andyp wrote: roof of the cave


Think there must be a picture missing :)

Cave?
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby 9fingers » 29 Mar 2018, 17:26

Robert wrote:
Andyp wrote: roof of the cave


Think there must be a picture missing :)

Cave?


Referred to earlier in the thread but no photo. It is a French cave not an English one!


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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -finished but water problem.

Postby Andyp » 29 Mar 2018, 17:38

The roof of the cave* is visible in this image. It is the raised bit of concrete that is about an 1" higher than the rest.

IMG_20180329_115819241.jpg
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If you really want to see an image of the inside I'll take one tomorrow. It is only breeze block walls with a small door into the garage.


*Cave - French for wine cellar NOT home for a hermit :)
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -cement layer removed.

Postby 9fingers » 29 Mar 2018, 17:52

Andy, did the cave rely on the tiles to waterproof the roof?
Assuming not, then how on earth is water that penetrates the concrete drained away to prevent it stressing the waterproofing of the roof?

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -cement layer removed.

Postby Andyp » 29 Mar 2018, 18:04

See the plastic sheet in this image?

The attachment IMG_20180325_130149187.jpg is no longer available


It was not spread over the whole terrace as I first thought but just of the top of the cave. I guess this is sufficient to keep the water out although it has probably been 3 years since I last looked in there. I will have a nose tomorrow.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -cement layer removed.

Postby Rod » 30 Mar 2018, 11:40

Was the cave contemporary with the house and if so why build it with so little cover?

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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -cement layer removed.

Postby 9fingers » 30 Mar 2018, 13:44

Rod wrote:Was the cave contemporary with the house and if so why build it with so little cover?

Rod


I've been thinking the same Rod. The cave is off to the side of a part subterranean garage which is part of the foundation of the house so how on earth the vertical damp proofing/tanking works and integrates with that almost improvised roof waterproofing.

It is not as if Andy's place is an old building with bits grafted on over the years. It is a relatively modern building and in a part of France that gets near UK levels of rain so needs similar build standards to UK not like the things they get away with further south in a near Mediterranean climate.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -cement layer removed.

Postby Andyp » 30 Mar 2018, 15:41

A shot of the cave entrance from the garage which as Bob correctly pointed out is underground with the exception of the entrance and a couple of dips for windows. The garage (sous sol) extends to the complete footprint and hence foundations of the house. The house was built in the early 90s.

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there are no obvious signs of water ingress from the roof. It is damp in there but I think that would be from the from the floor which is just earth with stones on top - typical for a wine cellar, so I am told.

I have no idea what the roof construction is. In the house block and beam is used on both the ground and 1st floor with a screed of sorts on top.

Hope that helps. If it brings up more questions don't hesitate as I hope to have just one shot at this to get it right and I do not want to be having problems in 4 or 5 years time.

The people who had the house built still live in the village. Last time we spoke he was either clueless (most likely) or evasive on how the terrace was laid.
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -cement layer removed.

Postby Andyp » 30 Mar 2018, 16:00

Just for reference these are the tiles

http://www.anticaceramica.it/download/serie/ANTICHE%20ABBAZIE.pdf colour Senaque 31x31cm
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Re: Removing tiles from terrace -cement layer removed.

Postby Andyp » 03 Apr 2018, 17:35

Both terraces fully prepared for the concrete pour tomorrow. I hope to be around to watch.
In order to achieve a 5cm slope (1cm per metre) from the house to the garden and to have sufficient depth of concrete at the garden edge the new concrete will be at a level about quarter of the way up the existing steps and the tiles will therefore be half way up. Not ideal but the alternative is to take up the whole concrete base.

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