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Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

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Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 16 Mar 2018, 15:36

Just heard that the very narrow no-through road that gives access to the four houses where we live is going to have timber extraction lorries going up and down for the next six months. Some sort of traffic light scheme is being suggested but how that will work for joining traffic I have no idea. I don't fancy having to reverse all the way up the twisty hill. I think I'd probably simply get out of the car, lock it and leave it and say Sod 'Em. Or tell them it's a new car to me and I don't know how to release the handbrake (when the seatbelts aren't being worn...heh heh :twisted: ) and then proceed to start reading cover to cover the 160 page manual.

And delivery drivers? I reckon that when the light at the bottom of the road has just gone red, it will take the timber lorry fifteen minutes to drive down. Is the courier driver going to hang around that long ? I can see them refusing to deliver.

So I want to find out if I can get at least a temporary injunction while alternative routes are considered.

Our Parish council are toothless.

Requests to see stuff under the FOI Act is also a good place to start with. The Health and Safety Risk Assessment for starters. That then leads on to requesting to see the relevant training certificates etc of the operatives involved. I can and will remain bloody minded on this.

Yeah I am grumpy. :evil: Even more than normal.

On the other hand, a financial sweetener would go a long way. And no, I don't want any conifers, thank you.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Malc2098 » 16 Mar 2018, 16:55

Without knowing the details of the developer etc, Roger, the only advice I can give is to ask your Local Highway Authority for sight of the Road Safety Audits at Stages 1 and 2 (Preliminary design and Detailed design) and also ask to see the Designer's responses to those Audits.

Then discuss with the relative LHA officer your specific safety concerns and what steps are they taking to deal with any arising out of the RSAs.

The LHA will not be looking to prevent it happening, just making sure that when it happens it will be have gone through the correct processes to ensure it is as safe as possible and with as little inconvenience as possible.

PS Can you send me a link to the relative council webpages about the timber removal. Thanks. M
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Malc2098 » 16 Mar 2018, 17:01

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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 16 Mar 2018, 17:30

Oh well spotted Malcolm. :eusa-clap:

That email address at Northumberland is perfect as talking to the previous owner of our house, he tells me that after the last time in 2012 there was an undertaking not to use the proposed route again and to extract via a more Northern route.

Your requests for audits etc are also superb, thanks.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Rod » 17 Mar 2018, 00:13

Is the road to your property a public highway and over what length are the lights going to cover?
3 convoys a day requiring traffic control seems a bit heavy handed.

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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 17 Mar 2018, 11:47

Rod wrote:Is the road to your property a public highway and over what length are the lights going to cover?
3 convoys a day requiring traffic control seems a bit heavy handed.

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Yes, it is a public highway but single track, narrow and with blind bends. Plus the timber lorries drive like maniacs. Only last week one shed its load across the A69 closing it for several hours.

Not only timber lorries though. I was nearly totalled by some cretin driving an HGV yesterday too fast round one bend on the A69...fast enough for the rear to be well over the double-white lines leaving me just enough room to squeeze by.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 17 Mar 2018, 12:47

Rod

Here's a photo from 2012 when they did the last extraction.

Image

Do you happen to know anything about Bailey bridges, possible spans etc. They are claiming that

There was a discussion about building a bridge in the area of SSSI taking it across peatland (The Wou/Rotheryhaugh) but it was decided that it would be impossible to build a bridge as the span too great.

How does one go about refuting this? Exploring alternative places to span ? Smacks to me of being too expensive for them.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Rod » 17 Mar 2018, 15:39

I think the following link will refute the span claim, more likely to be down to costs.

https://www.mabey.com/uk/products/bridg ... ompact-200

The road looks hardly suitable for HGV’s!

One solution is to construct passing bays at suitable locations preferably within site of each other. Would mean acquisition of land but would form a permanent improvement to the single track road and for any other timber movements in future years. The Highway Authority would have to manage the work but charge it to the timber operators.

Am I correct in thinking that the proposed traffic lights would be placed at each end of the access road encompassing the four properties?
Movements from the properties would be “blind” and not controlled within the lights operation?
Another solution is to operate a manually escorted system. For the few proposed movements, post a man at each end with radios, place warning signs at the properties that a movement is underway and with other traffic stopped, allow the timber lorries through. Cover any temporary signs, men picked up and the access road open to others.

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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 17 Mar 2018, 17:49

Hi Rod

All your points are well made.

I agree..it's not suitable for HGVs particularly a double trailered fully loaded timber lorry.

They critical section of the road in question is a very steep hill with blind bends and so putting a passing place would be tricky, I'd have thought.

With regard to the siting of the lights, like you I initially thought that our (and other entrances) would be blind but if they put the lights where they put them last time then there are no entrances from houses. But the approach is through these houses
rh1.png
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and along a single track road with very few passing places so it will be a long reverse,( and you know what ? I've just got my car and I can't get the electronic brake off)

but the lights are at the foot of this hill

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with tight blind bends

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and the second set of lights right at the top

rh6.png
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Your suggestion of an escorted movement is very sensible.

Thank you for the Mabey link...very useful. Do you have any idea how much these cost to hire ?
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Rod » 18 Mar 2018, 00:15

Sorry Roger I gave been retired for 10yrs so I’m out of touch with prices. It won’t be cheap especially for 6 months and they would also have to construct supports/foundations and new access roads.
Providing TL’s much much cheaper - a drop in the ocean by comparison.
Also properly set up with radar sensors they should switch to green on the approach of traffic providing vehicles are not already on the controlled length. With so few movements I wouldn’t have thought it would cause major problems providing vehicles can pass safely on the other sections.

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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Phil » 18 Mar 2018, 07:39

Having worked in an industry that purchased pulp logs, I saw what damage those logging trucks did to roads.

They are loaded to a maximum weight of 55 tons + 2% tolerance for the total rig.
It would typically be a horse + trailer + trailer.
If there are no weigh bridges then they just load as much as can fit irrespective of the weight.

A dirt or tar road deteriorates very quickly especially if there is rain.
Rain should not be a problem as Roger lives in the driest part of the UK. :lol: :lol:

Maybe part of the contract is repairs to any road or other damage.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 20 Mar 2018, 08:38

Are there any regulations regarding the installation of portable lights ? I'm thinking along the lines of notifications in the press, advance warnings, that sort of thing ? I can find regs relating to portable lights and road works but this vehicular access by the timber lorries doesn't come under that.

Any statutory notification period for applications to councils highways to give permission ?
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Rod » 20 Mar 2018, 10:17

The regs will be similar with regard to signing, operation and management.
The route is designated “yellow” on the Timber Transportation map:

https://timbertf.maps.arcgis.com/apps/w ... 441113c83c

And is classed “Consultation” - from what has been posted, this has already been carried out and it seems that the HA has stipulated the Traffic Lights.
I would contact the HA about notification periods but as a matter of courtesy a months notice would probably suffice together with black on yellow advanced warning signs erected at each end of the route.

I would ask for a contact number for the signal operators/maintenance company and ask if the lights are to be kept working 24/7 or switched off after the daily movements.

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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 23 Mar 2018, 08:40

There's the rub. There has been NO consultation. So pure schadenfreude as the sound of brakes being applied and back-pedalling. It very much looks as if the company managing the extraction competitive tender on behalf of the owners had arrogantly assumed that it would be a tick-box situation. It looks as if the tender has been awarded with extraction conditions that are not a given as they were never agreed in the first place.

Our group has been rattling cages very effectively and will continue to do so. Have to confess that I'm rather enjoying the challenge.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 28 Mar 2018, 09:57

NCC have not received a Completion Survey from the woodland management company which he told me they would need to receive and approve before work could begin.

I didn't have the original conversation and so can only take the above at face value and that the term 'Completion Survey' is accurate.

Does anyone know what a Completion Survey is in this context ?
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Phil » 30 Mar 2018, 09:16

For anyone who has not seen infield logging operation.



[youtube]5OrhGGZILGc[/youtube]



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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 20 Apr 2018, 22:06

OK...update.

Basically the whole thing stinks. When you get a reply from the Council chap (let's call him Chris), who signs these Conditional routes off, that 'I'm meeting Phil tomorrow and will discuss it then', you start to think.

Not a 'I'm seeing Mr Smith tomorrow and will discuss it with him then'

Or a 'I'm seeing Phil Smith tomorrow and will discuss it with him then'

But a 'I'm seeing Phil'.

Posit this...the Scene....the bar in the Bulls Head

Phil..."We're thinking about bringing out some timber like we did in 2012. Same conditions OK?'

Chris 'Yeah..why not. Another pint ?'

Which would explain why the Council have exceeded their 20 days to provide a response to the first FOI requesting details of the Road Audit. The second times out at the end of the month but I am not optimistic of a response.

I've found a company (I'm sure that there are others) who will undertake a Judicial Review on a No win - no fee basis.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 29 Apr 2018, 12:54

Well, the 'no-win-no-fee' people were a con outfit. But will keep looking.

The biggest problem is trying to get the local muppets to stop this daft concept of 'working together'. They need to realise that :

a) the Council is NOT your friend

b) the company taking out the logs is NOT your friend

c) the management company looking after the forest on behalf of the owners is NOT your friend

and (d) the investment management company that owns the forest most definitely is NOT your friend.

We had a meeting last week and were told that (a) (b) and (c) would be attending. I told the muppets that (a) definitely wouldn't be there....I was right

(b) might be there ....they didn't turn up .....although the meeting time and date was scheduled by them

(c) definitely wouldn't be there....I was right

So no-one bothered to come.

The FOI requests are both now out of time. Next stop the ICO to make a formal complaint.

They're all rear orifices.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Rod » 29 Apr 2018, 14:17

Have you got your local Parish Councillors and County Councillors on board?
The CC’s can put pressure on the Council officials.

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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 29 Apr 2018, 15:49

Rod wrote:Have you got your local Parish Councillors and County Councillors on board?
The CC’s can put pressure on the Council officials.

Rod



The County Councillor is onboard. As far as one can say that he is 'on board'. Basically he is a waste of space as he likes to be friends with everyone and sometimes you have to thump the table.

Parish Council admit they have limited leverage.

In fact, they both rolled over in the initial stages and rubber-stamped the timber extraction
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Phil » 29 Apr 2018, 16:23

Roger, the questions to be posed to them are:-

“Have any of you benefitted from this decision financially?”

“Have any of you received undeclared gifts over a value of GBP5.00 relating to this decision?”

“Have any of you been offered or participated in sexual indulgences which would affect this decision?”

“Are any of you being blackmailed regarding your actions taken in the questions above?”

“Are any of the people involved in the companies and/or council’s, family or friends?”

“Do you have shares or a vested interest in any of the companies involved?”

You can add to the list.

And yes, the answers are required in writing either directly or in Council or Board meetings.

There is nothing slanderous in these questions “any law abiding citizen is entitled to ask”.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 02 Jun 2018, 06:51

Well, delighted to say that the County Council have still not given their approval and are pushing for details as to why the alternative route isn't being used. Tilhill have had their knuckles well and truly rapped - arrogant little squits - for not following the voluntary agreement and simply pressing on regardless.

Meanwhile the landowners are not seeing any return on their timber.....such a shame :D

The delay means that the last stages will drag into the winter and the lorries won't be able to negotiate the hill.

I like to think that it's all down to us residents rattling cages.

Oh yes...the submitted Risk Assessment by the extractors was risible and rejected by theCouncil.
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby Phil » 02 Jun 2018, 07:15

If they do start trucking, do what the French do – barricade the roads with tractors, trailers and vehicles. :lol: (locally the people just torch a few trucks which blocks the highway)

Then invite the County residents to a Bring & BBQ in the street. Lots of beer. 8-)
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 02 Jun 2018, 07:51

Phil wrote:If they do start trucking, do what the French do – barricade the roads with tractors, trailers and vehicles. :lol: (locally the people just torch a few trucks which blocks the highway)

Then invite the County residents to a Bring & BBQ in the street. Lots of beer. 8-)


That's all illegal and if I did any of it would lose my Firearm Certificate. There are much ore subtler ways of doing things ...and within the law. :twisted:
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Re: Hey ho...any QC's out there ?

Postby RogerS » 25 Jul 2018, 07:07

So basically we've been shafted. Northumberland County Council made a big hoohah about rejecting the Risk Assessment provided by Iggesunds. Here is version 1. One would think that the rejection was because it doesn't take into account the risk to other vulnerable road users ie walkers, children on pushbikes etc and so reference would be made to these in subsequent Risk Assessments.

cra 1.png
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cra 2.png
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cra 3.png
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And here is an extract from the one that we submitted

cra 4.png
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And after two iterations between NCC and Iggesunds, here is the 'new' Risk Assessment. Spot the difference.

cra 5.png
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