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Powerline extender problems.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 31 May 2018, 08:03

Malc2098 wrote:
RogerS wrote:Bob..I have ten panels. Tested them all and no FM interference and no Powerline interference either. It's those * Denham ones that are causing the grief.

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Roger,

Where could I obtain one of the power supplies that you have to try it on my circuit?


The power supplies only come with the LED panel as a complete set. The product is MS-PANEL-40W-W-CW from here

https://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/60 ... light.html

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2018, 10:06

Thanks, Roger.

I may try a replacement and see what happens.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2018, 12:18

Well, I cannot praise my branch of Denman's too highly for their response to me when I went in there this morning.

Firstly, they took it seriously, even though I may not have articulated it properly. Several time I had to say 'It's not the wifi signal that's going, it's the data signal on the electrical network'.

They found a colleague who understood stuff a bit like Bob does and he explained to everyone what my problem was and that it was the drivers that were causing it.

They telephoned the supplier, Steeple, who immediately said it was the powerline extender at fault. (well, they would, wouldn't they).

They acknowledged that as my supplier it was their problem to try and resolve and gave me another four units of a different manufacturer FOC, for me to return the original Steeple units when I can. They are a different fixing, so that might be a problem, but their driver plug to the led unit is the same, is I might just try changing the drivers.

So I took a photo of the outside and the inside to see if the numbers or the individual components mean anything to any of you (Bob!).

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 31 May 2018, 12:24

At first sight, the driver module looks OK but I'll let Bob have the final say. The three key things to look out for are :

1) DC output voltage

2) DC current output available

3) polarity of the output cable.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 31 May 2018, 12:33

I would not mix and match the units just in case.

To start with put 1 new psu and new panel on a 13amp plug lead and run from one of your sockets for a quick powerline test. Obviously switch all the old lights off.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 31 May 2018, 13:00

As Roger suggests it looks normal ish. Most of the components to the left of the aluminium finned heat sink are related to interference suppression.
The tiny ali can with black sleeve over on the left is a high voltage capacitor and is ridiculously small as it is subjected to about 400v DC. Usually the first component to fail in any of these switch mode power units as they have to work quite hard and are under high voltage stress.
These things are invariably the same poor design and almost impossible to avoid. Highly likely to fail before the panel itself but and easy repair if you know what you are doing - you can send it to me malc lol

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2018, 14:12

Thanks, Bob!

Bad news I'm afraid. I wired to a 13 amp plug and set up the experiment again.

Same results as before, with the exception that there was no FM interference.

What is it about my circuit that's contributing to this issue?

I'm going to plug the powerline extender in the upstairs back bedroom to see if the wifi signal will reach the 'shop. But I will also observe the results when the 'shop lights are switched on with the extender indoors.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 31 May 2018, 14:37

Out of curiosity, Malc. What is the exact make and model of your powerline adapter ?

You could, if you have a choc block or similar and a bit of spare wire, add two individual shortish wires to the LED feed and then loop those through two ferrite beads (one wire per bead) as was suggested earlier on in the thread.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 31 May 2018, 14:39

Malcolm. I really don't know what there could be about the topology of your wiring that could possibly exacerbate the conflict.

If you like I can wind you a bifilar choke to put in series with your lighting feed immediately befor it splits 4 ways to each panel.
This is a 3 phase one which I can unwind and cram in as many turns of wire for single phase use and you can try that.
Pm me your address and I'll send it as soon as I can.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2018, 15:11

RogerS wrote:Out of curiosity, Malc. What is the exact make and model of your powerline adapter ?

You could, if you have a choc block or similar and a bit of spare wire, add two individual shortish wires to the LED feed and then loop those through two ferrite beads (one wire per bead) as was suggested earlier on in the thread.



All my Powerline adaptors are from TP-Link.

The wifi extender is the AV-600 (New logo)(TL-WPA4220)
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2018, 15:20

It never ceases to amaze me the amount and value of support offered and given on this forum.

Bob,

I have two separate radials for the lighting coming out from the CS and the symptoms are identical with each and both switched on.

Thanks for the offer, I will PM you my address, but you will have to write the instructions down in words of no more than 2 syllables with drawings every three words, please!!

I have just plugged the powerline extender in the back bedroom and taken the iPad and iPhone down the 'shop (or should that be up the 'shop?) Anyway, I can get a wifi signal on both the bits but not at the same time. I can get the BBC Radio iPlayer, but it takes a while to load. I can get the interface for the TV iPlayer, but it didn't want to stream.

I must have looked a bit of a wally wandering round the garden with Tony Blackburn blaring out of my tablet!!

I switched both radials of lights on and the one I connected to a socket earlier, and there was no data signal cut off!

So I've made a cup of coffee and got a couple of biscuits to chill for a while, still listening to last Saturday's Sounds of the Sixties!
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 31 May 2018, 16:28

We will gloss over what sort of video you might want to stream down into your man cave for now but this is quite a taxing requirement.

Do you have two breakers on for each of your lighting radials or just one? We might need two chokes one for each breaker? Let me make you one for now to try and if it works I can make another later.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2018, 16:31

9fingers wrote:We will gloss over what sort of video you might want to stream down into your man cave for now but this is quite a taxing requirement.

Do you have two breakers on for each of your lighting radials or just one? We might need two chokes one for each breaker? Let me make you one for now to try and if it works I can make another later.
Bob



Woodworking vids, obvs!!! :D

One breaker for each radial (= 2 x 6amp)
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 01 Jun 2018, 11:27

It seems this issue may have been known about as long as 5 years ago.

https://www.electronica-pt.com/media/kunena/attachments/62/Effects_of_LED_lamps_on_the_power-line_c.pdf
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 01 Jun 2018, 11:35

Good research, Malc. Which model TP-Link do you have? There have been several iterations.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 01 Jun 2018, 11:41

RogerS wrote:Good research, Malc. Which model TP-Link do you have? There have been several iterations.



Listed above Roger!

Malc: I have time to produce this choke now but I've not heard from you regarding your address.
Since your wifi experiments, do you still want this choke making?

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 01 Jun 2018, 11:55

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:Good research, Malc. Which model TP-Link do you have? There have been several iterations.



Listed above Roger!

Malc: I have time to produce this choke now but I've not heard from you regarding your address.
Since your wifi experiments, do you still want this choke making?

Bob



Thanks, Bob. Yes, Please. I sent a PM yesterday. Just looked in my messages - it's disappeared completely!!

Sending another.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 01 Jun 2018, 11:59

This one is definitely in my outbox!
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 01 Jun 2018, 12:14

Interesting. All my TP-Links are the one with the 13A socket built in. Maybe that makes a difference and that it is the AV600 that is sensitive.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 01 Jun 2018, 12:20

RogerS wrote:Interesting. All my TP-Links are the one with the 13A socket built in. Maybe that makes a difference and that it is the AV600 that is sensitive.



The could be a possibility, and I may yet email TP-Link's support.

However, I have currently set the AV 600 up in an upstairs bedroom overlooking the 'shop and have no data severance in that situation with the 'shop lighting on.

This suggests to me that it there is something about the local topography of the workshop wiring that permits, encourages, facilitates or whatever the conductive interference from the LED drivers.

But whatever that could be, I have no idea.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 01 Jun 2018, 13:08

Malc2098 wrote:This one is definitely in my outbox!



Reply sent

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 01 Jun 2018, 14:34

Any retired highway lighting engineers know about this sort of stuff?

http://www.gridcomm-plc.com/assets/document/PB70003_01_LES-40-GP11X_Product_Brief-S.pdf
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Robert » 01 Jun 2018, 16:11

Not read past the first few lines but that seems to be a 'smart' driver. It can be told to turn on or off/programmed or whatever by signals sent down the mains cable to it. Nothing to do with internet over mains wires.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 03 Jun 2018, 15:06

I opened up one of my drivers...looks almost as if they both use the same circuit diagram...just that the layout is slightly different.

IMG_20180602_140208.jpg
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One strange thing Ive just noticed about my lights is that looking at the edges I can now see 6 or 7 distinct bright LEDs that I didn't notice before. Very hard to take a good photo of them.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 03 Jun 2018, 15:39

Both seem slightly in conventional in as much as I can't see a bridge rectifier and 400volt capacitor immediately following the filter components. I wonder if the output is low voltage ac and the panels have half the LEDs operating on each half cycles?
This is common with low voltage filament lighting transformers which of course are quite happy on any frequency ac.
It could be a case of light psu designers thinking differently from standard switch mode supply designers?

I've sent Malcolm a couple of bifilar chokes to see if that will sort him out.

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