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Powerline extender problems.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 27 May 2018, 20:17

RogerS wrote:
Malc2098 wrote:OK.

I've got a little DAB/FM radio plugged into the circuit with it's wallwart, is that what they're called?

Play DAB with lights off - all good.

Play DAB with lights on - no interference.

Play FM with lights off - all good.

Play FM with lights on - interference.

What does that tell us, Bob?


It tells us that you're not using the right waveband ! Try MW and tune around.



I'm not sure quite what Roger is driving at with his suggestion but i will try and describe what is going on.

The home plug signal uses a wide band of frequencies from 1.8 MHz to 30MHz and to work it requires that there are not other signals in that band on the mains cable to which it is connected.

Fm radio occupies 88 to 108 MHz and DAB 175 MHz to 230MHz.

Malcs experiment shows that his lighting is producing signals of significant power at least up to 108MHz but not at high as the 175-230MHz band.

Typically the power supply modules will be switching at around 100kHz with a pulse waveform. If we do the maths (and I'm not going to) this contains odd harmonics of 100kHz ie 100, 300 700, 900kHz 1.1MHz and so on. the amplitude of each harmonic reduces very slightly from one to the next as the frequency increases.

Malc's experiment shows that those harmonics are still going strong at 1000 times the fundamental frequency of 100kHz ie up into the 100MHz region. To cause interference the power in the harmonic has to be greater than that coming from the local radio transmitter which might not be very strong say at the micro watt level (millionth of a watt).
The power unit for the lights are pulsing at 40 watts per light at 100kHz and the 1000th harmonic (well actually the 1001,1003 1005th etc harmonic) will still have power in the micro watt range and cause the interference by being stronger than the broadcast transmitter

You might need to read this a few times and apply aspirins but you should be able to follow with a bit of application.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 27 May 2018, 21:54

I think ...I.... get that, Bob.

So, is my next step to wait for the ferrite beads, fit them just upstream of the power units and repeat the experiment?

And if there is no change, then get on to the lighting supplier.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 27 May 2018, 22:02

Malc2098 wrote:I think ...I.... get that, Bob.

So, is my next step to wait for the ferrite beads, fit them just upstream of the power units and repeat the experiment?

And if there is no change, then get on to the lighting supplier.


Good glad it helped.
Fit them on the mains input to each supply, as close to the supply as you can.


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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 27 May 2018, 22:14

9fingers wrote: Fit them on the mains input to each supply, as close to the supply as you can.


Bob



Bob, please help me out here. When you say 'supply', is that the transformer box thingy for each LED Panel?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 27 May 2018, 22:24

Malc2098 wrote:
9fingers wrote: Fit them on the mains input to each supply, as close to the supply as you can.


Bob



Bob, please help me out here. When you say 'supply', is that the transformer box thingy for each LED Panel?

yes "power supply module"

In your powerline problem you want to "decouple" source of the interference from the mains cabling that is carrying your powerline signal.
However if you repeat your radio test, then there will possibly be little improvement because the interference will still be radiated by the wires to the panel and the panel themselves. However I would expect a marked improvement in the powerline performance.

Once it is working, out of interest you can run data rate tests (google for test programmes) and look for differences with lights on and off.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 28 May 2018, 01:27

I was having a senior moment there, Bob, and thought that there was no interference on either DAB or FM.

OK, fingers crossed for Malc that the ferrite beads will work but what are we going to do for the "common good" as clearly these LED panels are not fit for purpose and should not have a CE mark.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby timothyedoran » 28 May 2018, 08:37

Is the issue with the panels or the transformer? Could you swap out the transformer with a 12v car battery, assuming they are 12v?

Then you would know if it's the panels or the transformers that need changing. New transformers that are better quality should be easy to obtain. Screwfix sell them iirc

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 28 May 2018, 09:05

timothyedoran wrote:Is the issue with the panels or the transformer? Could you swap out the transformer with a 12v car battery, assuming they are 12v?

Then you would know if it's the panels or the transformers that need changing. New transformers that are better quality should be easy to obtain. Screwfix sell them iirc

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Timothy, there are no transformers in these LED drivers. The voltage is also much higher than 12v in any case. A good idea, all the same.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 28 May 2018, 09:11

RogerS wrote:
timothyedoran wrote:Is the issue with the panels or the transformer? Could you swap out the transformer with a 12v car battery, assuming they are 12v?

Then you would know if it's the panels or the transformers that need changing. New transformers that are better quality should be easy to obtain. Screwfix sell them iirc

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Timothy, there are no transformers in these LED drivers. The voltage is also much higher than 12v in any case. A good idea, all the same.



Erm another senior moment Rog? It it the high frequency transformer that is creating the problem. There would be no issue if it ran at 50Hz.
@tim. The earlier photo shows the panels run at 35 ish volts.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 28 May 2018, 09:48

:oops:

I'll shut up !
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 29 May 2018, 13:09

Well, they arrived this morning, I attached them as close as I could, and there's no change, either in the FM interference or the Powerline behaviour.

IMG_1740.JPG
(135.81 KiB)


What next? Do I approach the LED Panel supplier (or manufacturer), or do I approach the Powerline supplier (or manufacturer)?

Bob,

I know nothing about the theories involved, but the earth cables within the lighting circuits are not connected to anything, in the power supplies or the switches, because there's nothing to connect to. They are, however, connected to the earth buzz bar in the CU. Can that be relevant?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 29 May 2018, 13:38

OK It was worth a punt but now some thing more radical needs doing.

There is no point in badgering the powerline comms suppliers as they (rightly) are going to blame the led PSU
Supply type earthing will make no difference at radio frequencies

If as I believe the supplies came as part and parcel of the led panels (?) the best the supplier might offer is to take them back and refund money but then you have data comms but no lights but at least they will know their units leave something to be desired.
Be aware that the powerline comms/switchmode power supply combination is an extremely difficult mix from an interference point of view. Think of trying to hear a pin drop whilst a full orchestra is playing in the same room. The supplier might be more expected to be concerned about VHF interference.

Other options.
1)They might offer you a different power module to try but I doubt they would have any linear ones.

2)You could knock up a linear supply from basic parts but you won't like that I suspect

3)The proper, sensible solution will be to run an ethernet cable through your power duct and connect this directly to your computer. Strictly speaking comms cables and power are not supposed to live in the same duct but who will know??
You MIGHT be able to run a wifi hotspot in the workshop but not guaranteed. Further devices could be connected to the ethernet cable using a switch or any old router configured as a switch.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Robert » 29 May 2018, 16:11

Can't see it making any difference but anything I've had with a ferrite on the mains had the cable looped so it goes through the ferrite twice - like a single turn coil winding. Looks like you may have enough cable to try it.

Think you have more than one light... Might be worth trying the lights one at a time in case you have one rogue unit and the others are benign.

You can get 36V 10A power supply for £18 on ebay meaning you could discard the driver modules and wire all the panels DC back to the one unit. I use a similar unit for my garden lighting (a 12V version) but no powerline extenders here to know if it still is a problem.
Last edited by Robert on 29 May 2018, 16:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 29 May 2018, 19:11

Robert wrote:Can't see it making any difference but anything I've had with a ferrite on the mains had the cable looped so it goes through the ferrite twice - like a single turn coil winding. Looks like you may have enough cable to try it.

Think you have more than one light... Might be worth trying the lights one at a time in case you have one rogue unit and the others are benign.

You can get 36V 10A power supply for £18 on ebay meaning you could discard the driver modules and wire all the panels DC back to the one unit. I use a similar unit for my garden lighting (a 12V version) but no powerline extenders here to know if it still is a problem.



That power supply is a switchmode type. They tend to be fairly well built but no assurance that it wont also produce interference to some degree or other.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby DaveL » 29 May 2018, 19:23

Robert,

That is still a switch mode power supply, it might be better than the supplied units but there is no guarantee.

This reminds me of a comment from one of my work mates back in the 70's when I worked for STC, we had a switch mode PSU in the bit of equipment we were working on. All of the development had been done on the bench with linear mains powered units, the switch mode PSU radiated a huge amount of noise. He said it was like keeping a crocodile in the bath, it made using the toilet a bad experience! I had to spend a long time designing screens a filters to contain the noise.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 29 May 2018, 19:26

Thanks, Gents, for your suggestions.

I only got the 7mm beads. so I don't think the input cable would go through twice.

I've gone back there and played about with the lighting on and off with the iPhone connected to the wifi and it's messed me around a bit. Sometimes the data connection light would go out and sometimes it wouldn't, but connection was still lost.

But after everything seemed to settle down, I eventually took a video of the data signal disruption to the iPad, which has no sim-card but was wifi connected to the powerline extender , and connected to the BBC Radio iPlayer on Radio 2, and then the disruption on the radio FM band on Radio 2.

I aim to pop down to Denman's when I've got a minute, see the manager and play him the vid and ask him what his supplier of the panels might think, as well as Denman's themselves.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 30 May 2018, 15:10

Malc2098 wrote:....
But after everything seemed to settle down, I eventually took a video of the data signal disruption to the iPad, which has no sim-card but was wifi connected to the powerline extender , and connected to the BBC Radio iPlayer on Radio 2, and then the disruption on the radio FM band on Radio 2.

I aim to pop down to Denman's when I've got a minute, see the manager and play him the vid and ask him what his supplier of the panels might think, as well as Denman's themselves.


:text-bravo:
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 30 May 2018, 17:55

RogerS wrote:
Malc2098 wrote:....
But after everything seemed to settle down, I eventually took a video of the data signal disruption to the iPad, which has no sim-card but was wifi connected to the powerline extender , and connected to the BBC Radio iPlayer on Radio 2, and then the disruption on the radio FM band on Radio 2.

I aim to pop down to Denman's when I've got a minute, see the manager and play him the vid and ask him what his supplier of the panels might think, as well as Denman's themselves.


:text-bravo:



Thanks, Roger. Was that for the process or the choice of radio station?! :D
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 30 May 2018, 17:58

Malc2098 wrote:....

Thanks, Roger. Was that for the process or the choice of radio station?! :D


The process! And that you're proposing to talk to them about it.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 30 May 2018, 18:22

I have been running some tests with the aim of assessing the effect of various interference sources on powerline comms.

The relevant part of the network and test set up are shown below


network test.jpg
(101.15 KiB)


I use a similar power supply unit to the Ebay one suggested by Robert on my planer lift. this is a 240 watt unit that drives the motor which raises and lowers the planer that weighs about 250kg so the power supply is working quite hard. Malcolms lighting will be about 160 watts so the same order of magnitude load as my planer lift.

Power supply and rating label

network testing 003.jpg
Power supply
(344.65 KiB)


network testing 002.jpg
Power supply spec
(228.08 KiB)


Specifically to try and emulate Malcolms set up, I have plugged in the power line transceiver next to the mains lead going to the planer lift supply. Also in the photo below is the wifi access point and its power supply.

network testing 001.jpg
Powerline test set up
(256.49 KiB)


Whilst I was at it, I tried to assess other interference sources in the workshop

1) High frequency ballast unit for 10 fluorescent tubes. These switch at around 100kHz in an attempt to raise the efficiency of the lighting. 580 watts total load
2)3 phase inverter rated at 1hp to run the bandsaw. this runs at around 16kHz and 750 watts
3) 3 phase inverter running the dust collector this also runs around 16kHz and rated at 2200 watts

The test uses some freeware to generate a 5M byte file on the local PC, upload it to the network storage disc in the house and then to read it back. the data rate in each direction is recorded.

The results are as follows
Interferer Upload data rate Download data rate
Mb/second Mb/second

Lights on, everything else off 1.17 1.3
Lights on, planer lifting up 0.85 1.6
Lights on, planer lowering down (less power needed) 1.05 1.6
Lights on, planer power supply on but lift idle 0.95 1.73
Lights on, everything else off (repeat test) 1.23 2.03
Lights on, bandsaw on 1.35 0.65
Lights off, all off 1.30 1.24
Lights off, planer lifting 1.01 1.3
Lights off, planer lowering 1.3 1.98
lights off, dust collector running 0.7 1.5


A few strange things that i can't explain such as:
why is download nearly always faster than upload?
why is the down load on the repeated test so different?
Why does the bandsaw affect the download much more than the upload?

However what I can say is:
The planer lift power supply does not cause much degradation in data rates either way
Low power 3 phase inverter on the bandsaw makes little difference either
The HF ballasts on the lights make little difference
The dust collector inverter does cause interference but as it only operates when the machines are running and I would not be transferring data as the same time as operating any machinery.

I believe that there is a good chance that if Malcolm were to use one of the generic "ebay" supplies for his lights, then he should not experience the same catastrophic loss of powerline data.

I hope this is of interest to some and specifically, helpful to Malcolm to indicate a way ahead.
That said, I still maintain by far the best solution is to run an ethernet cable out to the workshop.

I also use both DAB and Fm radio in the workshop and never noticed any interference athough when the duct collector is running (the biggest interferer from the data tests) I cannot hear the radio anyway.

My source text has the results table neatly formatted. The forum software has bu88ered this up but I hope you can puzzle it out.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 30 May 2018, 20:37

I feel extremely honoured that so many people have looked in or replied to this thread and especially Bob and Roger, whose words and drawings have been extremely supportive.

I never intended to run an ethernet cable from the house to the 'shop, because I never intended to use anything other than a phone and tablet in there. The duct carrying the SWA cable only runs a few feet under a path and under some soil, and the rest is attached to walls. I can carry on finishing the setting up of the building and machines quite well without it.

But it would have been nice to have a wireless access point via the powerline network, and I could find nothing online to suggest it would not be viable.

Anyway, I shall return to the LED Panel supplier and show them the video and invite comment or any other form of resolution that they may offer and will report that to this thread.

What does concern me, though, is that I may appear to be special, in that nobody else is saying they have the same problem. The certificate came through from the electrician today, so does that remove the wiring as part of the problem?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 30 May 2018, 21:13

The wiring certificate has absolute no bearing on your particular problem. It is often difficult to even find a sparky who understands motors let alone radio frequency susceptibility and interference.
Your lighting people will be similar.
You are connecting a high power jammer directly to a sensitive radio receiver. The receiver is like trying to hear a pin drop in the same room as an orchestra is playing ( have I already used that comparison or just thought it before?)

Are you a special case? well maybe or just a bit of a pioneer. I expect few people are using led panels domestically as they mainly used as part of suspended ceiling system for offices and offices will not be likely to use powerline comms.

As far as the forum members go, Mark is planning to use panels but being a professional IT man, has cat5/6 cabling and in any case not yet installed fully yet (roll on Christmas :lol: )
Roger has one panel to play with ( I think) and AFAIK not networked his garage/workshop so that is what I mean by you pioneering

What my experiments have tried to show you is that you do stand a fighting chance of getting your lights and powerline cooperating if you use the "ebay" type supply.

Going back to the lighting supplier might give you the satisfaction of venting your spleen but you still need lights - maybe they will give you money back for the power supplies if they sell them separately from the panels ?
That cash could well fund the purchase of an "ebay" supply.

The other approach is that AFAIK your shop is not that far from the house so a WIFI access point hidden in the house somewhere near could give you wifi access for phone and tablet.

You will get there and I'm still happy to try and help if needed.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 30 May 2018, 21:23

Bob..I have ten panels. Tested them all and no FM interference and no Powerline interference either. It's those * Denham ones that are causing the grief.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 30 May 2018, 21:28

RogerS wrote:Bob..I have ten panels. Tested them all and no FM interference and no Powerline interference either. It's those * Denham ones that are causing the grief.

Sent from my PLK-L01 using Tapatalk



Roger,

Where could I obtain one of the power supplies that you have to try it on my circuit?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 30 May 2018, 21:34

RogerS wrote:Bob..I have ten panels. Tested them all and no FM interference and no Powerline interference either. It's those * Denham ones that are causing the grief.

Sent from my PLK-L01 using Tapatalk



Apologies Roger, got that badly wrong then :oops:

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