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Powerline extender problems.

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Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2018, 09:31

Here's the thing....

I've got a powerline network (TP-Link) in my house for the Mac Mini and the Humax.

I've got a Powerline Wifi Extender (TP-Link) in the workshop to create a wifi hotspot in there for my iPhone and iPad.

It works fine, I can get BBC Radio iPlayer and get the last month's Tony Blackburn's Hits of the 60s to my hearts content without using up my phone allowance!

The signal even gets picked up back in my house from the Mac Mini.

As soon as I turn the workshop lights on, LED panels, the powerline unit show no data signal over the electric network, and access to the internet is lost.

When I switch them off, it comes back.

What's happening?!
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 24 May 2018, 10:00

That's because the designers of these cheap and nasty (OK...I've got some LED panels myself) don't give a toss for RF interference. The LED driver is injecting this interference into your mains hence you losing signal. The fix is, I think, wrapping the supply to the lights around a ferrite bead(s). That should fix the interference being injected down the actual copper cable but there may still be RF interference also induced into the cable by the RF itself.

But Bob's your man.

I will be watching this thread with interest as I too have a TP link in the workshop but, as yet, no LED lights powered up. I shall be popping out there shortly to do a test and will report back.

Mind you, could be all that dodgy wiring you put in. :lol:
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 24 May 2018, 11:51

I'm afraid that it looks like it's locally to you, Malc, as my TP-Link works fine. So could be a difference in drivers and/or LED panel and/or the mains wiring.

Having said that I bet that all the drivers and LED panels come from 'LED Panel and driver City' China and are all the same. Where did you get yours from ?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2018, 12:41

RogerS wrote:I'm afraid that it looks like it's locally to you, Malc, as my TP-Link works fine. So could be a difference in drivers and/or LED panel and/or the mains wiring.

Having said that I bet that all the drivers and LED panels come from 'LED Panel and driver City' China and are all the same. Where did you get yours from ?


The dodgy wiring's been certified (a bit like me!)

The LED Panels Came from Denman's

https://www.denmans.co.uk/den/root-category/Lighting-%26-Lamps/Commercial/LED-Panels/40W-economy-600x600mm-LED-slim-panel-light/p/2501089535
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 24 May 2018, 13:13

Similar but not identical.

Can you tae a photo of any wiring on the driver or are they all hidden away now ?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2018, 13:29

I had a cunning plan to install them so I could remove them easily!!

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 24 May 2018, 16:46

Roger is correct. You might have some luck with ferrite suppression rings but there are several interference mechanisms that could be at work here and without sophisticated equipment and understanding of RF interference suppression it is difficult to pin down the source and fit an effective filter.
By far the easiest way is to pull an ethernet cable through your cable duct (you did leave a rope in there didn't you?) :lol:
and use a wired connection.
Another possibility is to use a linear power supply for your lights.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 24 May 2018, 16:52

Malc, have you spoken to Denmans about this ?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2018, 16:53

9fingers wrote:
Another possibility is to use a linear power supply for your lights.

Bob



Thanks, Bob.

For an A Level Woodwork student, what's a 'linear power supply'?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2018, 16:53

RogerS wrote:Malc, have you spoken to Denmans about this ?


They ere going to be my next port of call.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 24 May 2018, 17:01

Malc2098 wrote:
9fingers wrote:
Another possibility is to use a linear power supply for your lights.

Bob



Thanks, Bob.

For an A Level Woodwork student, what's a 'linear power supply'?


Probably crossing posts with Bob but here goes...

In its simplest form

Transformer to drop the 240v mains down to something lower ...then a bridge rectifier (semiconductor) or some diodes (another semiconductor) to convert the AC into DC. But this DC will have a bit of AC left (called ripple) so we need to get rid of that. So we stick a big capacitor between the + and - and that takes away the AC ripple. If we want to be really smart and keep the DC at a constant voltage, we then add a zener diode (another semiconductor) and maybe some resistors and another capacitor.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2018, 17:12

Simples! :D


The last time I had a zener diode was on my Police Triumph!

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby HappyHacker » 24 May 2018, 20:12

As the power supply is CE marked it should comply with the EMC (Electromagnetic compatibility) regulations see http://www.gov.uk/guidance/manufactured ... patibility . Unfortunately they tend to restrict this to TV and radio interference but it is worth a try. Do the panels affect any radio signals? Worth trying a portable radio to see.

As has been said many of these unit continued (Autocricket strikes again - should say contain) the minimum of electronics to make them work and often the cheapest components are used. Denmans are a reputable company so they should have done their homework. Let us know how you get on.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 24 May 2018, 20:58

These are cheap enough to try and see it they work.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4pcs-7-0mm-C ... Sw9qJabcqN

Fit one to each power supply cable on the mains input side close to the power modules. They accept cables up to 7mm so should be big enough.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2018, 22:06

Thanks, Bob.

Busy over the next week or so.

I'll be back!
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby timothyedoran » 24 May 2018, 23:21

I found out last week that the cheap laptop charger from work kills the power line. Very annoying.

I think cheap electronics are cheap for a reason, poor manufacturing, quality control resulting in unreliable performance.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 25 May 2018, 04:37

timothyedoran wrote:....
I think cheap electronics are cheap for a reason, poor manufacturing, quality control resulting in unreliable performance.

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They have to be made cheap because, for most consumers, price is the only criterion that their brains can comprehend.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 25 May 2018, 04:51

I tried to buy one to research a bit and had to grit my teeth at their draconian registration process. Mandatory this. Mandatory that. WTF ? All I want to do is buy an LED panel...not write War and Peace. What is my annual electrical spend ? None of your business Denhams. So I put £100000000.

But I think they must use their own delivery vans and as I am outside their area they won't supply me. Pity they don't make this clear upfront if this is the case. Ah well, their loss, not mine.

Malc...please try a radio ...on all wavebands to see what the interference is. As HH says, if these are stamped CE then they should be fit for purpose. From what you are saying, they should not be on the market.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 25 May 2018, 09:39

I'm tucked up for a few days, but I've left myself notes to take my FM and DAB radios in the 'shop and try them out.

In case anyone should be confused with what I described, the powerline data signal carried on the domestic electrical wiring network is lost when the lights are switched on, but the wifi signal remains good.

BTW, I was lucky in that Denmans have place in my town, my electrician is a long term customer of theirs and so I was able to set up a cash account with them and collect all my stuff.
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 25 May 2018, 10:01

To avoid possible confusion, the powerline data signal is still there when Malc's lights are on but additionally there are signals from the the switching circuitry in the power supply modules that he is using, that get super imposed on the mains wiring.

The powerline receiver plugged into the same mains supply gets confused by the mixed signals and fails to work.

There are a number of things to consider for interoperability of electronic equipment involving both the interference each one creates and the susceptibility of each one to signals from other equipment and it ends up as a compromise in the real world. Usually moving things apart help but in this case the mains wiring is connecting the systems together and so filters such as the ones I linked to above can help.

Malc, if you are going to be busy for a while I suggest that you might like to order some filters - only a few quid for pack of 4 so they are with you ready to try out when time permits.

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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 25 May 2018, 11:24

Thanks, Bob, for clearing that up.

I will.


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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Mark Hancock » 25 May 2018, 12:48

I think I may have a similar problem though the above got too technical for me to follow/understand :?

I have radio interference since changing over to LED tubes in the workshop. Also have LED lights on car causing radio interference so much so that have to listen to CD's when the lights are on. In the workshop the radio is sometimes bearable. Would those eBay noise suppressor things be of use?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby 9fingers » 25 May 2018, 13:56

Mark Hancock wrote:I think I may have a similar problem though the above got too technical for me to follow/understand :?

I have radio interference since changing over to LED tubes in the workshop. Also have LED lights on car causing radio interference so much so that have to listen to CD's when the lights are on. In the workshop the radio is sometimes bearable. Would those eBay noise suppressor things be of use?


I'm surprised if led replacement tubes could cause a problem as they are high voltage and simply plug in instead of a conventional fluorescent tube. By far the easiest way of dealing with the problem is to move the radio and possibly the direction the antenna points. I have a led replacement tube in my kitchen and not noticed a problem with the portable radio in there.

Malc's problem is that he has low voltage panels and the modules that convert mains voltage to a level suitable for the panels are pushing out radio interference into his wiring which also carries his powerline ethernet signal.

As for the car I would go back to your dealer as the lights are clearly incompatible with the car radio and they should sort that out for you.

hth
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby Malc2098 » 27 May 2018, 17:20

OK.

I've got a little DAB/FM radio plugged into the circuit with it's wallwart, is that what they're called?

Play DAB with lights off - all good.

Play DAB with lights on - no interference.

Play FM with lights off - all good.

Play FM with lights on - interference.

What does that tell us, Bob?
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Re: Powerline extender problems.

Postby RogerS » 27 May 2018, 19:31

Malc2098 wrote:OK.

I've got a little DAB/FM radio plugged into the circuit with it's wallwart, is that what they're called?

Play DAB with lights off - all good.

Play DAB with lights on - no interference.

Play FM with lights off - all good.

Play FM with lights on - interference.

What does that tell us, Bob?


It tells us that you're not using the right waveband ! Try MW and tune around.
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