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Dave's Shed project (progress)

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Dave's Shed project (progress)

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 03 Mar 2016, 15:25

Hi all,

I’ve been lurking for many months while deliberating my new shed design and have changed tack many times, in part thanks to the excellent contributions on here. The time approaches to stop nerding it up and start building, so I’ve broken cover to say hello, bore you to tears and hopefully gather some feedback on my proposed shed design. I will be very grateful for some assistance on a few of the remaining decisions. I hope to learn a lot over the next few months!

Firstly I should state my requirements which may help explain some of my design decisions:
Current state
My 8*6 shed is far too small to be used practically. I currently house 3 pedal bikes, garden tools, and expanding set of power tools, bike tools and paraphernalia and some other junk, plus a full length workbench and vice on one 6ft side. In summary it’s rammed. I have one of the keter storage boxes outside the end of the shed too holding mower etc. It has no electric lighting and it’s cluttered. The current shed doesn’t maximise the space, partly because of the odd shape of space it occupies.

Proposed state
Build a much larger shed occupying the space better with Reverse pent roof planned due to consideration of the neighbours. Proposed size <15sq.m and max height will have to be <2.5m – I’m not interested in pursuing planning permission. Based in Scotland too so I believe my proposal is within planning limits.

Two compartments with separate doors– one large for storing and securing bikes, bench, tools and organised storage for bike bits etc. all in a space where I can work without emptying the place. Maybe even use it for some woodworking projects!
The other compartment will house all garden tools, garden furniture when we buy some and a big weber barbecue during inclement weather.
No windows planned – no need. Security risk from the bike perspective for the main space and no real need for light in the storage area. I’m planning to run electricity in and will engage a qualified spark for this (no part P though thankfully as in Scotland)
Running in mains from the house <10m away to provide light and some double sockets for power tools. May fit a waterproof external socket for running mower and pressure washer too.
Wide doors – modern mountain bikes approach 800mm for bars, so looking at 1m wide doors to get in and out with no problem
I’m 6’2 so would love a 1.85m doorway as I’ve smashed my head enough in the current shed

So that’s what I have in mind so far. Being a nerd with a seemingly endless capacity to overthink things and absolutely hating scenarios where I meet an obvious problem at a late stage I decided to model the proposed shed using google sketchup. It took a fair bit of time to learn the tool and some of its tips and tricks, but I’ll be happy to make most of my major design mistakes in the virtual world :) I can pop the file in one drive for anyone interested - I expect after this post it will be a necessity!

Design decisions taken so far:
The space is an odd shape, like an almost right angled triangle with the nose cut off. I have two neighbouring back gardens to consider. The shed itself will face almost exactly due north, so the neighbours are on the east-south-east side and the south side if you were looking out the door. Both gardens are bounded by a 1.83m fence. Originally I wanted to build to fit the space exactly and quickly realised that with no right angles on any side it would have been impossible to build (it was impossible to model!) so stripped the design back to a wall running parallel to the southern neighbour boundary approx. 400mm from the fence and two walls running perpendicular to this. This means the front face of the shed on the north side is angled at 56.5 degrees. The issue is if I build a rectangle in that space I won’t be able to make a footprint very much bigger than what I have currently, which to me seems rather pointless. The space in front of the shed is largely wasted as it’s just grass and a couple of thrown down slabs, which I could build on and use for storing more junk :)

In terms of neighbour considerations the southern boundary shouldn’t mind the shed approaching 2.5 m as their garden looks onto the current shed and they have 2 young kids, so there is a playhouse in that space anyway – I won’t be blocking light or views. They are easy going too so I don’t foresee a problem. The ESE boundary might be trickier as the proposed shed will block some light from their garden at the very end of the day as the sun is setting. If I put a normal pent roof in this will mean the high point is overlooking their garden (over the 1.8 m fence by approx. 700mm max) and may obscure late day sun slightly. This is why I had the brainwave of reversing the pent to put the high side towards the back of that boundary to appease any potential issues. I don’t know if I’m over thinking this though – I reality it might block a tiny bit of light for the last hour or so of a few of the days per year. I also haven’t approached either neighbour about my plans yet so don’t know if either would be worried. I know I don’t legally have to consider this but I’ve not had a problem with any neighbours so far and don’t want to start!

This gives rise to my remaining challenges to solve:
1. principally spanning 4m safely without skimping on roof joists but not at the expense of headroom,
2. achieving some pitch without breaching the 2.5mmax height and
3. fitting a 1.85m door onto a reverse pent shed with sufficient space to clear eaves and gutters J

I found Trada tables online and it suggests C16 in the region of 6*2, but I don’t know if this is overkill for a shed? I definitely don’t want the roof coming in, but I’m hoping the combination of some sensible trusses plus 18mm OSB? For the roof would help me achieve the span without having to significantly lower the front wall / door height.

Other things I’ve opted for are:
1. I’m opting for this as the shed base. http://www.shedbase.com/probase/ I don’t want to lay a muckle big lump of concrete in the garden and this stuff looks like it will cope with my needs. Costed out at <£300 for the area I need including a bulk bag of pea shingle to fill some voids.
2. EPDM for the roof as I hate roofing felt and being a new build I can hopefully fit this and forget. I also think this will let me use a 1:12 pitch without too much trouble.
3. Cladding wise I love waney edge larch and a local sawmill has assured me they can do a good price on it (to be confirmed) If cost is prohibitive I might only clad 2 edges in it.
4. 75*75 bearers sitting on the probase
5. 19mm treated t+g flooring, possible with a vapour barrier underneath
6. 75*50 wall studs at 400mm centres (not 610 as in the sketchup drawing
7. 11mm OSB lined inside, vapour barrier and cladding on outside
8. No insulation planned for walls or roof
9. 1000mm doors

Budget wise I don’t really know how much most of it will cost, because I don’t yet know what I need.
I’ve costed the base at c. £280 and the EPDM roof would probably be the same again, so I’m expecting little change £2k at least, possibly more if the cladding is pricey. The alternative is to buy off the shelf but to fit the space it would be a full custom job and I am really up for the challenge of building something myself and being proud of the job.

I have looked at a number of the projects on here and they are all very impressive buildings – some of the construction is excellent. This shed will not be in the same league, so I hope you’ll understand my desire to use things like the plastic base. It will be a fairly sizable building, but only used for light duties.

Anyway, as usual I have said far too much, so I thank you for reading if you are still awake and look forward to hearing your feedback.

Thanks!

David
Last edited by ScotlandtheDave on 02 Aug 2016, 20:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Andyp » 03 Mar 2016, 15:33

Welcome to the forum Dave. Have you been able to find the builds by wizard9999 (Terry) & Mike G? Loads of info there.

When you start the build don't forget the camera, we like photos.

I am sure the more knowledgeable will be along soon to help with your queries.

Edit I'll move this thread to General Woodworking
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Mike G » 03 Mar 2016, 15:54

Too many words! I need a pictures :lol:

Drop us a drawing Dave, and you'll get plenty of comments. And welcome to the forum, BTW.

No insulation in walls and roof!!! Well, sorry, but that's the worst decision any shed builder could make (other than sitting the sole plate straight on the ground). Insulation is cheap, easy, and painless. It would be nuts to build a decent workshop and not include it. Without insulation, in Scotland, you'll be using this shed for about 4 months of the year.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 03 Mar 2016, 17:44

Hi,

Thanks for the replies so far. I have browsed all of the shed threads with interest Andy and the quality of work is awesome. A bit daunting even :)

Mike G - i'll get you a drawing up and put a link to the latest sketchup file online somewhere - you're right a picture will paint 5000 words in my case :) I take your point completely on the insulation, especially as installing it afterwards would be significantly more difficult. I don't spend much time in the building itself atm as I'm often working on bikes etc, but that's perhaps because the space isn't big enough to work in at the moment and the lack of artificial light is a nightmare. The design would facilitate insulation easily as I'm double-skinning, so will give it some serious thought.

I'll get some drawings up ASAP - thanks all.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Mike G » 03 Mar 2016, 22:03

Dave, there may be a bit of forum software that stops you posting images until you have 3 posts, if i remember correctly. It's to ward off spam-bots. Post another comment somewhere, then you'll be free to drop images in (just host them on Imgur, Photobucket etc).
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Dan0741 » 03 Mar 2016, 22:28

Dave - Looking forward to your build, you will find lots of very useful guidance here as I am sure you have seen from other posts, the photos speak a 1000 words and convey what you are doing clearly. Best of luck as you embark! :D

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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby TrimTheKing » 03 Mar 2016, 23:09

Welcome aboard David

Interesting sounding plans you've got here, can't wait to see the pics…

Cheers
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 04 Mar 2016, 19:10

Hi all,

right, a couple of pics of the proposed development area :)

Image

Image

This shows the shed from both angles and the spacing / neighbour boundaries. these pics are taken from the house which is to the North east of the shed (the door pretty much looks north)

Please excuse the horrible condition of the existing shed, the felt needs replaced and it needs a coat of stain, which i may or may not do before selling.

I'll get the sketchup model into a state where it will make sense and post it later tonight too!

Cheers

Mod Edit: Dave you now have made your third post[ and the moderation thing goes away and your posts will appear immediately. Sorry for the delay with approving this one. Bob
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 05 Mar 2016, 13:06

Hi all,

Sketchup model showing dimensions. This is the top down view, so hopefully you can tie in how the model looks to the photos. I've gone to mm precision with this, so not 100% sure after all this time why the numbers aren't perfectly rounded :)

Image

full hi res link too as thats hard to see. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2VGi6Y-Y0m1g9xqP4GocV_UzAiFFdPYyCLRLSr59LNE?feat=directlink

Here's a link to the full model if you are on google Sketchup 2016. As said its definitely a WIP...
http://1drv.ms/1QUdILN
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Rod » 05 Mar 2016, 18:06

That's a very odd shape - have you checked out useful internal capacities by plotting to scale what you would like to store and carry out in there?

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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Mike G » 05 Mar 2016, 19:20

I'd echo what Rod said. Your notional floor area is illusory, because that tight corner at bottom left is not very useable. I really can't see the problem in building a rectilinear building in that location.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 06 Mar 2016, 21:11

Thanks for your responses Rod and Mike - you've really challenged my thinking, which is exactly why I joined and posted. Initially I was going to respond and say i was making use of the space because it was the only space available to use! Thats not an ideal rationale, but as i said in the OP i went with this design to expand into whats available.

However after a period of reflection you got me thinking. There's no definitive reason why i can't put a rectangular building in there and simply expand further right into garden, building a longer, thinner shed or build over the end of the gravel strip shown in the pictures. This would solve a lot of problems, namely removing the issues with spanning a 4m void and the issue of overlooking the neighbours garden. it would simplify construction somewhat too.

I understand its useful to build in sizes compatible with modern sheet wood sizings, so given its a 4m length at the moment what would you suggest?

Thanks again gents, back to the drawing board!
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Rod » 06 Mar 2016, 21:45

Sheet materials come in at 2.440x1.220m so any combination of them - 3.66,4.88 etc

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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Mike G » 07 Mar 2016, 09:49

It's only marginally helpful to design to material sizes. Better to design the best building you can, then cut a single sheet of material on each wall. You'll be cutting anyway, because even the best forget to allow for the thickness of the sheets at the corners, and tolerances between the sheets, and so on. The only important dimension when planning around sheet sizes is height: don't have a wall height of 2.5 metres, when sheets are 2.4m tall! (I've seen it done: it's hilarious........when it isn't your own building).
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Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 07 Mar 2016, 13:55

Hi, thanks for the advice. I am happy to note I did allow for the OSB tolerances after seeing one of your previous posts so my model allowed for 3mm between sheets and 14mm at the corners.

The plastic shed base comes in 500mm squares so makes sense to try and accommodate around this. I've had a think and reckon 4.88 *2.44 (16*8) would fit ok, but need to get back to the drawing board tonight. Rods suggestion of plotting out storage space and the bench is a good idea too.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Wizard9999 » 07 Mar 2016, 14:10

ScotlandtheDave wrote:Hi, thanks for the advice. I am happy to note I did allow for the OSB tolerances after seeing one of your previous posts so my model allowed for 3mm between sheets and 14mm at the corners.

The plastic shed base comes in 500mm squares so makes sense to try and accommodate around this. I've had a think and reckon 4.88 *2.44 (16*8) would fit ok, but need to get back to the drawing board tonight. Rods suggestion of plotting out storage space and the bench is a good idea too.


Won't that necessitate a change in orientation of the roof, meaning it is side on to the neighbour who you seemed a little more concerned about? Or will you just look to span the 4.88m dimension?

Terry.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 07 Mar 2016, 14:45

Hi terry, id be looking to extend the shed width as it stands currently, so instead of making it deeper it would be longer. This would extend along the southern boundary fence, meaning the neighbour to the left of the pictures above would see less of the shed. As always a picture should help and I'll try and knock something up tonight!
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 07 Mar 2016, 21:10

Hi,

Hopefully this makes things a bit less confusing. It really was a lightbulb moment yesterday when the suggestions were made, to the point where my wife, who had been roped into helping with measuring duties said "why didn't you always plan it this way?" :oops:

Anyway, yet another graphic. So, here's the real world shot:
Image

and heres the 4.88*2.44 unit from roughly the same perspective:
Image

The pic shows which neighbour is which and you can see from the overlay the new shed wont overlook nearly as much of their garden as the old one. As its tucked away in the corner i'm content that the height wont be a problem at that distance, as there are deciduous trees at the side there that will shade light anyway. This design of roof also makes the span only 2.44m, instead of 4m, so should mean i can use smaller timbers to retain head height and i can also get full height doors in too because the high edge is at the front again.

Happy days! I think i should take a few days away to stop annoying you all and redevelop for a rectangular profile, but if anyone sees any gotchas in the rest of the proposal (points 1-9 in paragraph 97 up there :D ) i'd appreciate your wisdom and advice as always.

Thanks again, been a great help so far.

David
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Mike G » 07 Mar 2016, 21:19

Good decision Dave.

One of the first things I always get clients to do is to imagine stuff not being there. Just imagine the location for the building being blank. You've been bamboozled by the unimportant bits of hard landscaping, paths etc, but once you've seen past that you've got yourself a decent looking shed. You image is too small to see the writing, so I can't see what your notes say.....but I can see that you will have a shed to be proud of in due course.

When it comes to designing the structure, I have some important tips for the base, even though you are using a product new to me in place of a foundation. Don't rush on until we've looked at that in detail! ;) :)
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 07 Mar 2016, 21:28

Hi Mike,

Yes a valuable lesson learned indeed - thank you! The notes are only there to show the shed roof heights (2.4 closest to the front of the drawing, sloping to 2.1 at the rear) and indicating which neighbour is which. I was concerned about blocking light to the garden on the left, but i think the one behind should be ok with it.

I'm intrigued about the base now and look forward to your opinion on it. I have done a bit of research on the product and i believe it will suit my needs and budget, but i haven't seen much real world feedback, especially on the forums here. I know concrete with bricks and mortar are recommended here, but thats really beyond my skill set :)
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Mike G » 08 Mar 2016, 21:17

Well, with a 2.4m span and decent drainage in the area of your shed, I think that a reasonable shed base can be made using the stuff you are proposing. However, I wouldn't use their base details, and I have a simple and cheap alternative which should add years to the life of the shed.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 08 Mar 2016, 21:28

I wouldn't use their base details

interesting, do you mean the "just lay it on turf" methodology? I was planning to dig out slightly and lay pea shingle to aid drainage and levelling and use some in the grids themselves under the bearers. a bulk bag is £40 delivered oop north.

however..

I have a simple and cheap alternative


the suspense is killing me! :lol:

I did look at slabs and blocks, but the prospect of trying to get 50 odd blocks dug to the right level wasn't appealing. I'm all ears though!
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Mike G » 09 Mar 2016, 08:31

No, I would use their product as suggested, although I would suggest digging away the top soil and laying some compressible porous material such as hoggin in its place. (I can never remember the difference between Type 1, Type 2 and Type 3 :oops: ). No, my suggested change would be what goes on above their product. Instead of laying the sole plate of the building direct onto the plastic grid, I would suggest buying those cheap pre-cast concrete lintels readily available at any builder's merchant, and laying those on the grid underneath the sole plate locations, and wherever you need load-bearing (so maybe at the mid-line of floor joists). Seal up the gaps so that vermin can't find a way in, or fill the inside with pea-shingle to the top of the lintels. Getting your sole plate up above ground level is critical to the longevity of any building. You've then only got to bring the bottom your cladding down below the top edge of the concrete lintel and you've given your building every chance of lasting decades.
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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby Rod » 09 Mar 2016, 09:23

Hogging is a mixture of clay, gravel and sand and good for footways, driveways if you want a countryside/rural/historic look. Can be impermeable because of clay content and not the best choice in this situation.
Type 1 is graded stone and fines mix and is classed as the strongest. Used on heavily trafficked highways.
Type 2 "less" graded but more fines and slightly weaker but cheaper used on minor highways and footways.
Type 3 is generally a similar sized material but free draining (very porous)

Scalpings - generally ungraded crushed rock, a waste product and the cheapest subbase.

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Re: Hello and a proposed shed project!

Postby ScotlandtheDave » 09 Mar 2016, 09:34

Thanks again Mike, much food for thought there. I had planned to use 75*75 tantalised bearers and mount the floorboards directly to this to keep the overall height down, but the concrete lintels will last a lot longer. I'll need to work out overall heights if I add floor joists on the lintels, but I assume if I space them evenly (c. 400mm centres) place lintels along all edges and through the midpoints I could use something relatively low profile i.e. it wont need 4*2 joists. I need to work out overall heights but don't want this to dictate using something that wont be suitable.

Thanks also for the explanation Rod - I had to Google what Hoggin was!

I sense more sketchup coming to design the ground profile and look at working this in to keep within 2.5m
Thanks again for your contributions, it is all very much appreciated.

Dave
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