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Mark's Workshop/Garage

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 10 Nov 2017, 23:10

9fingers wrote:The "third" is only a rule of thumb. If you take the height of the ridge (underside) and subtract the height of the top if the wall plate and divide that by three, you will be about right to get the height of the tie.
Using the principle of similar triangles, that will put the tie 1/3rd of the way along the rafter too.

You might get away with it a smidge higher (40%) but the rafters might have to go up a size so a lot more timber for 100-200mm more height.

Bob


So if for example underside of ridge to wall plate is 900mm, would that mean 300mm from wall plate to the bottom edge of the tie, the centre of the tie, or the top of the tie?
For this example if the measurement is to the bottom of say a 200mm tie, I would gain 300mm headroom. However if the measurement was to the top of a 200mm tie then i would only gain 100mm headroom.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby 9fingers » 10 Nov 2017, 23:30

spearos wrote:
9fingers wrote:The "third" is only a rule of thumb. If you take the height of the ridge (underside) and subtract the height of the top if the wall plate and divide that by three, you will be about right to get the height of the tie.
Using the principle of similar triangles, that will put the tie 1/3rd of the way along the rafter too.

You might get away with it a smidge higher (40%) but the rafters might have to go up a size so a lot more timber for 100-200mm more height.

Bob


So if for example underside of ridge to wall plate is 900mm, would that mean 300mm from wall plate to the bottom edge of the tie, the centre of the tie, or the top of the tie?
For this example if the measurement is to the bottom of say a 200mm tie, I would gain 300mm headroom. However if the measurement was to the top of a 200mm tie then i would only gain 100mm headroom.


Generally I'd take the reference from the centre of the tie. So with your example an increase of 200mm.
But the tie is in tension and possibly does not need to be anything like 200mm deep.
In extremis you could make it a steel rod 20-25mm diameter?

My shop has a pitched roof at 30 degrees and 10m long. 100 x50 rafters at 600mm pitch each with ties also 100 x 50 about 1/3 up. Building width however is only 3m.

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Deejay » 11 Nov 2017, 09:48

Morning Mark

My immediate reaction is that I do not want to go down the structural engineer route, I imagine it will add significant cost to the build as well as holding up the build further.

How much would it cost for peace of mind, especially if you're thinking of adding a hoist to it?

You can also take off the cost of the timber you won't need and have the benefit if a vaulted ceiling.

Once the steel has been specified, you could probably get it delivered before you are ready to fit it.

I'd think about it if I were you.

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Rod » 11 Nov 2017, 11:58

A RSJ would certainly work in that situation but you would also have to beef up the end supporting rafters and the end vertical studs as they would be acting as pillars and have to support more load.

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 11 Nov 2017, 23:31

I have been going over and over this in my mind today and I'm still not keen on the RSJ etc. I think going down that route would further complicate the build/design and most importantly slow the build down further. Without going into the reasons, I need to get things moving. It would also stretch my inexperience even more! :lol:
I appreciate the advice, I really do, but I think if I can keep ~2.5m headroom, a principle truss is the way forward.

With a pitch of 22.5 degrees, a wall plate height of 2.3m and the building width being 4.5m, I calculate the underside of ridge to wall plate measurement being ~900mm. With this in mind, a 150mm raised tie, one third up the rafters (300mm above wall plate) would give 2550mm head room.
Question is would a 150mm tie be adequate? - I'm thinking of a truss design in the middle of the building (halving the span of the 9x2 ridge beam) that has doubled up rafters with a raised tie (6x2) and a collar tie (8x2) sandwiched between them.

Help me please! :eusa-think:
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 02 Dec 2017, 23:04

A bit of progress to report :D

I've decided on the roof design. At one end I will have rafter ties at wall plate level, raised ties at the other end and a section in the middle with no ties.
The ties at wall plate level will be on three rafter pairs (covering ~1.2m). They will be above where I plan to have a work bench etc (extra head room not needed). Once boarded this will give me a decent storage area above benches etc and also somewhere to mount lighting for the bench.
The area with no ties (~3.6m/four rafter pairs) will give me a work area with unrestricted head room, enough to raise one end of a tall vehicle substantially.
The area of raised ties (~1.7m/five rafter pairs) will still give decent headroom at ~2.5m and allow storage of long/awkward stuff.

I'm planning on using 2x8 for the ties. Which for a loading of no more than .25kN/M² the max span is a touch under 4m. I will be careful (weight-wise) with what I store in the storage offered by the ties so I'm happy with ties of this size... Unless I'm told otherwise! :lol:

As for actual physical progress, it's been slow. Only having weekends (with short days and awful weather!) and with other commitments time has been limited.
However, I have put together three of the six 'frames' - the plan is to make six frames, the ends of the building being single frames and the long side spans being made in two frames each.
The three frames I've made each have a window or door so have been a little more complex, The remaining three frames are straight forward and shouldn't take too long.

The first frame I made unassisted, it was slow and once made I couldn't move it (timber was wet)! So I decided to cut all the studs and base/top plates.

Image

I remember Mike G saying that the cut ends of timber are the most vulnerable, with this in mind all cuts have been treated. A bit over-kill perhaps but I got a great deal on the preservative and I think for the short time involved in applying the treatment, it is worthwhile.
Incidentally, I was surprised at how little the pressure treatment penetrated some of the timber. Looking at the photo, is this normal? Or is my timber supplier just supplying a poor product?

Still thinking about the roof, when I get there I plan to use the 'step out method' for marking the rafter cuts.
It seems straight forward enough and to keep things simple I will use a 5/12 pitch which at 22.62º is marginally more than the planned 22.5º.
Or, can someone recommend an easier way or point me to a useful guide or 'how to'?

While I'm talking about rafters I've read that the plumb cut of the birds mouth should be no more than 1/3 of the rafter depth, this doesn't worry me as I'm using 2x8 rafters so there's plenty of material. However for my application I'm thinking the seat cut can dictate the plumb cut. But, what should the seat cut be? Perhaps around the same as the wall plate - 96mm?
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Malc2098 » 02 Dec 2017, 23:32

Apart from the technical stuff, of which I have no idea, it sounds great!!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 03 Dec 2017, 09:10

No, that penetration is normal Mark. It is a barrier, no more.

As for birdsmouths, I tend to make the plumb cut the depth of the plate if there isn't a good reason to do it differently.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 08 Dec 2017, 21:55

Thanks guys :D

So tomorrow I'm braving the cold and I hope to have all the wall frames up. My plan is to sit them on wedges (with no mortar) and get them all braced level and square - I envisage positioning them as being a bit of a pain, especially because of the internal boarding detail I'm going for. Besides, I don't think the weather conditions will be conducive for mortar setting.
The mortar bed I will do when it warms up... which I'm led to believe could be a while - signs are we could be in for a long cold winter. Now wouldn't that be typical when I'm building a workshop!!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Malc2098 » 08 Dec 2017, 22:03

I seem to recall a year ago I started laying the bricks for my plinth. Had to look at the Met Office website every few hours to predict whether it would be 'warm' enough to mix mortar!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Deejay » 09 Dec 2017, 10:07

Morning Mark

Have you looked at mortar antifreeze?

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Sika-Wintermix-5L/p/133788

Cheers

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Rod » 09 Dec 2017, 11:44

A covering of hessian sacking or plastic bags should keep the frost off enough.

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby will1983 » 12 Dec 2017, 17:01

Use warm/hot water in your mix and store the bags of mortar mix in the house to 'pre-heat' your mortar.

Keep an eye on the weather forecast (metcheck is the best I find) and try to place your mortar early on in the day to allow the hydration reaction the maximum amount of time to start before the night time freeze.

Also don't under estimate the amount of hessian/polystyrene/plastic sheeting you need to keep the mortar temperature above freezing. You can buy ready made frost blanket designed for the purpose.

Apart from that there's nothing much else you can do to ensure you get proper hydration of the cement.

If the frost does get to your mortar don't think that just leaving it a bit longer to cure will work, it won't. Once the ice crystals have formed in your mortar it is too late and the whole mix is knackered.

I am a Civil Engineer with my speciality in reinforced structural concrete, we have to contend with placing cementitious materials in cold weather every winter and these are the things we do to achieve the proper strengths. However even with the best preparation we sometimes get hit by the weather and end up having to rebuild.

Probably the best advise I could give is, unless you are sure it is going to work properly then just wait for a day when the temperature is maintained above 5oC for the following 48-72hours.

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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p.s. Good luck and keep up the good work!!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 12 Dec 2017, 22:38

Thank you everyone for your comments. To be honest I'm not overly concerned... yet! I'm sure the typical British winter down south will present plenty of mild enough days. Question is how soon and will they coincide with a weekend :eusa-doh:

will1983 wrote:Probably the best advise I could give is, unless you are sure it is going to work properly then just wait for a day when the temperature is maintained above 5oC for the following 48-72hours.


For now this the above is what I intend to do. I follow the weather closely during the winter season (an interest of mine) so I can plan accordingly.
I can't see any issue with the frames sitting on wedges for a prolonged period?

Anyhow, some real progress... The frames are up!!

Image

Poor photo, as you can see we had a bit of snow Sunday morning!

Did this on Saturday, the diagonals are within 2mm however a little bit of tweaking is needed with levels.

Frames were squared, braced and then erected one by one. The apertures for the two doors align with the gaps in the block work and it all went together rather nicely :eusa-dance:
It is all temporary screwed together pending final fettling - I'm willing to spend the time to get it as level, square and the wall plates as parallel as possible.

I have a plan for my roof. Something along these lines:

Image

Excuse my poor drawing skills! To summarise:

    The end rafters are doubled up with a tie and a collar tie sandwiched in between.
    One end has two pairs of rafters with ties at wall plate level
    Other end has ties one third up on four pairs of rafters
    The 9x2 ridge beam spanning ~3.6m where the rafters have no ties (extra headroom)

Rather than have the rafter spacing at ~600mm throughout I plan to have the four pairs of rafter with raised ties at ~500mm spacing. Why? The length of the building means if I carried the ~600mm spacing along the entire length, I would have a pair of rafters just ~200mm from the end rafters. Which annoys me!
There is also a benefit in that the area above the ~500mm spaced ties is planned for storage and having ties (joists) at ~500mm centres will increase the capacity of this storage area.

Yes it will involve some extra cutting of the internal cladding (OSB) but waste is minimal (OSB sheet sizes at top of drawing).

Anyone dare give me the green light on this plan?!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Malc2098 » 12 Dec 2017, 23:34

I'm not experienced enough to give you a green light, but so far the frames look good!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 12 Dec 2017, 23:52

Malc2098 wrote:I'm not experienced enough to give you a green light, but so far the frames look good!


Thanks Malc. Your continued support is appreciated :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Jimmy Mack » 23 Dec 2017, 12:58

Mike G wrote:Well you will certainly be improving the view of the end of your garden!

That's a nice size building you are planning, and having decent access will really help. One poor soul here had about a 60 or 80 metres journey, through an existing garage, to get to their workshop location.



:text-yeahthat: ...but a 2.1m wide, dog-leg archway drive.

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Jimmy Mack » 23 Dec 2017, 13:05

Frame work looks good. Lovely time of year for it :?

Keep up the good work :)
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 03 Jan 2018, 21:47

Jimmy Mack wrote: :text-yeahthat: ...but a 2.1m wide, dog-leg archway drive.


Well observed :eusa-clap: Not ideal I know but I'm sure I can live with it.

Jimmy Mack wrote:Frame work looks good. Lovely time of year for it :?

Keep up the good work :)


Thank you for the encouragement :obscene-drinkingcheers: Yes, I never envisioned being in this position at this time of year - things took way, way longer!

Incidentally it's this damn weather that's holding me up, it's either been too cold (frost), too wet or I've been busy so I've not had chance to lay the bed of mortar under the frame!
However I have a plan... some accelerator/frost proofer admix! Plan is to do it this weekend, despite the weather looking rather chilly. I never knew such a product existed, has anyone any experience with such a product?
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 05 Jan 2018, 23:30

Still thinking about the roof, and I'm thinking about the verge/barge board and fascia detail.

I am going to use Onduline for the roof, and this detail for the verges (I really dont like the look of the verge pieces by Onduline)

Image

My issue is with 200mm rafters plus ~50mm purlins and the height of the Onduline corrogation, it would mean having huge barge boards and fascias!

Thinking how to get round this, I'm thinking a solution would be to have no rafter tails.Then I could choose a fascia size (and barge boards to match) of my liking, which could be spaced out with batons to give the desired overhang (overhang will be minimal). The FE boards would then continue over the remaining exposed sections of the rafters.

Or, is there a simpler/easier way of avoiding bug barge boards/fascias?
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Malc2098 » 06 Jan 2018, 10:32

Mark, it must be an individual taste thing, because I was going to end up with bargeboards and facia's the same size and that didn't look right to me. So I made the bargeboard wider while leaving the facia at 150mm.

You don't have to have the angled depth of your 200mm rafters. You can cut their tails off to a depth that you prefer which then becomes the plumb for the bargeboard.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 06 Jan 2018, 11:39

spearos wrote:Still thinking about the roof, and I'm thinking about the verge/barge board and fascia detail..........

Or, is there a simpler/easier way of avoiding bug barge boards/fascias?


Yes. Use smaller ones! I'm not a fan of barge boards. On a shed, if you have them at all, then plant some 2x2 on the face of the gable and use this as the stop against which you run your feather edge boards. When you've finished your boarding, just plant some 3x1 or 4x1 over as the barge board, and have your roofing overhang this.

I avoid soffits and fascia boards as much as I can. I much prefer exposed rafter feet, with boarding between. Again, a piece of 3x1 or 4x1 as a fascia of sorts supports the lower edge of your roof material, but is hidden behind the gutter.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 06 Jan 2018, 23:39

Malc2098 wrote:You don't have to have the angled depth of your 200mm rafters. You can cut their tails off to a depth that you prefer which then becomes the plumb for the bargeboard.


I get it... I think! - Do you mean a horizontal cut at the bottom the rafters? Cleary shown in your pic by the right angle at the bottom of your barge boards?

Mike G wrote:Yes. Use smaller ones! I'm not a fan of barge boards. On a shed, if you have them at all, then plant some 2x2 on the face of the gable and use this as the stop against which you run your feather edge boards. When you've finished your boarding, just plant some 3x1 or 4x1 over as the barge board, and have your roofing overhang this.


This is somewhere along the lines of what I was thinking!

Mike G wrote:I avoid soffits and fascia boards as much as I can. I much prefer exposed rafter feet, with boarding between. Again, a piece of 3x1 or 4x1 as a fascia of sorts supports the lower edge of your roof material, but is hidden behind the gutter.


And this then ties in with the barge detail above - the 'fascia' is minimal (possibly matching the barge board size), leaving the lower section of the bottom rafter plumb cut exposed?

If I remember correctly Mike, you have used Onduline on a previous workshop - may I ask how you finished the verges?

Lots to think about, cheers guys!

I have spent some time out there today - really is an awful time of year to be building a workshop! Managed to fill the void between frame and blocks with mortar on three sides. I'm sure I would have got more done if I wasn't mixing mortar by hand and if there wasn't a surprise (in that it wasn't forecast) shower, which meant some frantic running around trying to cover up!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 26 Mar 2018, 20:35

Is Winter finally over?! Progress has been so slow!

But... This weekend I hope to have the roof framed, or at the very least most of it!

I have a whacking great ridge beam

Image

And 28 rafters cut

Image

And a load of timber for ties. Hopefully I'll manage to get it all together!

After reading all the differing opinions my friend Google suggests, I am still unsure of the best way of fixing the rafters. I'm thinking skew nailing with 4" nails; for the birdsmouth a couple of nails (one either side) of the level cut and for the top of the rafter 3/4 nails - either 2 one side and 1 the other, or, 2 either side? Any on the upper 'thin' edge?
Rafters are 8"x2".

The ties will be bolted.

Due to my lack of experience, I'm thinking it might be best to drive the nails with a hammer, rather than using the Paslode? Taking it slow and steady, leaving the heads proud until I'm 100% happy (mistakes more easily put right this way!).

Something very basic for more experience folks - putting a few nails in! However I would very much appreciate any tips, suggestions etc :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby 9fingers » 26 Mar 2018, 20:48

I used screws to give me even greater recovery from cockups :lol:

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