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Mark's Workshop/Garage

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Malc2098 » 29 Mar 2017, 20:24

I have to say that I didn't go into much further than outer dimensions for mine.

The first time the triage office sent it back for: -

01. The floor plan and elevations submitted are not to a recognisable metric scale. Please re-submit at either 1:50, 1:100 or 1:200 scale.

02. Please submit separate drawings for each of the four elevations as we are unable to accept '3D' plans. Please also ensure that any doors and windows are shown.

03. The shape of the workshop on the Site Location and Block Plans does not match the floor plan. They should include the roofed decking area.


I had sent the Front, End Elevations and Plan on one sheet. I had a bit of a problem getting a recognisable scale interpreted from a 2D Sketchup drawing, but I got there in the end.

And after a phone call to explain that this was a garden workshop, not anything residential, it was accepted, as was.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 29 Mar 2017, 20:48

Malc2098 wrote:I have to say that I didn't go into much further than outer dimensions for mine.

The first time the triage office sent it back for: -

01. The floor plan and elevations submitted are not to a recognisable metric scale. Please re-submit at either 1:50, 1:100 or 1:200 scale.

02. Please submit separate drawings for each of the four elevations as we are unable to accept '3D' plans. Please also ensure that any doors and windows are shown.

03. The shape of the workshop on the Site Location and Block Plans does not match the floor plan. They should include the roofed decking area.


I had sent the Front, End Elevations and Plan on one sheet. I had a bit of a problem getting a recognisable scale interpreted from a 2D Sketchup drawing, but I got there in the end.

And after a phone call to explain that this was a garden workshop, not anything residential, it was accepted, as was.


Thanks Malcolm :obscene-drinkingbuddies:

It does seem that a lot of it is down to the individual, the character of the planning officer and what kind of day they're having!

So, would it be fair to say that it was an easy, quick enough process to make amendments?

As mentioned at the beginning of my thread, I have viewed a recent application for a garage a few doors away and the drawings for that are basically just the major dimensions of the building and just the width of the door (garage only has one door and no windows).
This gave me the impression that the planning department are not that particular about details for an outbuilding (garage/shed/workshop), that impression is reinforced by your information reference your phonecall to the planning department.
Perhaps if I made it very clear in my 'design and access statement' that this is an outbuilding, basically just a garage, they will not pull out the fine tooth comb!! ;)
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Malc2098 » 29 Mar 2017, 22:06

Yep. They said above, please make sure any doors and windows are shown, but they didn't ask for dimensions of them.

I only ever had to go for PP because noone could give me a definitive answer for a datum level because the site slopes two ways. So they said apply for PP. So I did, and took advantage to add a bit of height that you wouldn't get within 2m from the boundary with Permitted Development!

Once the triage mob said it was OK, I just had to wait the 8 weeks.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Deejay » 30 Mar 2017, 08:27

Morning Mark

Have you tried the local glazing companies for 'mismeasured' frames?

Apparently it happens regularly, if not often, leaving them with unwanted stock. Rather than pay for a skip, they sell them off to get something back towards their costs.

Thanks for the link. I'll add it to the buyers guide file.

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby TrimTheKing » 30 Mar 2017, 11:34

Mark

My recent experience of similar for my workshop is that I specified the window opening sizes on the plans that were passed then decided I was going to replace all the windows and doors in my house and that I could recycle some of the better condition windows for use in the workshop.

These are a slightly different size than the plans, and at the same time I decided I wanted to add a velux into the roof which wasn't on the plans. I called up the planning officer and explained the situation, she had a look at the plans and agreed that the window size change was negligible and positioning the same, and the velux overlooked the highway but no neighbours, and because it's in a vaulted ceiling I couldn't see out of it anyway, so she just asked me to fill in a 'non material change' request which was a formality to ensure that the changes were added into my PP file for completeness, but to go ahead with the changes.

HTH

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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 30 Mar 2017, 21:02

TrimTheKing wrote:Mark

My recent experience of similar for my workshop is that I specified the window opening sizes on the plans that were passed then decided I was going to replace all the windows and doors in my house and that I could recycle some of the better condition windows for use in the workshop.

These are a slightly different size than the plans, and at the same time I decided I wanted to add a velux into the roof which wasn't on the plans. I called up the planning officer and explained the situation, she had a look at the plans and agreed that the window size change was negligible and positioning the same, and the velux overlooked the highway but no neighbours, and because it's in a vaulted ceiling I couldn't see out of it anyway, so she just asked me to fill in a 'non material change' request which was a formality to ensure that the changes were added into my PP file for completeness, but to go ahead with the changes.

HTH

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Trim... You really are the king! Perfect, just what I wanted to hear! Thank you Mark :eusa-clap:
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 30 Mar 2017, 21:16

I can't believe I'm doing this... But I think I'm going to change my basic design :shock: I've been looking at flat roofed timber buildings and they really are ugly, well maybe it's not that they're ugly it's that timber buildings with dual pitched roofs look so much better!
Yes, I have concerns aboutt building something too high but I think if I built something with a flat roof to reduce the height marginally, I would eventually regret it. I'm going over the 2.5m permitted development height either way so it's not like a pitched roof will change an awful lot.

Mike, if you read this can you give me your thoughts on my earlier dimensions, pretty please? -

spearos wrote:Unless I'm mistaken to have enough clearance above a Land Rover (for raising the vehicle), with a vaulted roof I am looking at an eaves height of 2.3m. Which, with a 24° pitch gives an overall height of ~3.3m and I would have an internal height of around 2.55m on the 'low side' of where the vehicle would sit.
This is calculated with 150mm rafters - would that suffice?

Time for another cutting edge drawing:

Image


If I go down this route, Onduline corrugated roof sheets initially, with the intention of replacing them with something more durable down the line. Anyone have any experience of Onduline corrugated sheets?
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby TrimTheKing » 30 Mar 2017, 21:20




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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 30 Mar 2017, 21:21

Yep, my last workshop had an Onduline roof. Don't bother with any colour other than black, because they all turn black anyway. With enough support they make a durable reliable and pretty cheap roof. Do make sure you have at least the minimum support the manufacturers recommend.

I'll have a look for the drawing I did, Mark. Are you going for asymmetrical side hung doors now?
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 30 Mar 2017, 21:37

22.5 degrees is a useful pitch to remember. It is the lowest pitch suitable for slate. I don't think there is much to be gained from going above that unless you are wanting to use tiles, and so need to be in the 30 degree plus range, depending on type. At 22.5 degrees, your ridge is going to be approx. 3.4m (to structure). A 2400 door opening looks just a little tight to me. I'd suggest 2700 to be comfortable. Your headroom (2550) is available over the entire width of the car. In fact, even at 22.3 degrees, your theoretical headroom is about 2700 over the width of the LR roof, so you could raise it some 750mm off the floor.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 30 Mar 2017, 22:11

Mike G wrote:Yep, my last workshop had an Onduline roof. Don't bother with any colour other than black, because they all turn black anyway. With enough support they make a durable reliable and pretty cheap roof. Do make sure you have at least the minimum support the manufacturers recommend.

I'll have a look for the drawing I did, Mark. Are you going for asymmetrical side hung doors now?


Thanks Mike. Onduline looks like a good choice, to me, it's just it does have some bad press. However perhaps that's down to not following the manufacturer's fitting instructions - I have looked at the downloads for fitting instructions and would follow them to the tee.
Useful pointer ref. colour :eusa-clap:
Yes, asymmetrical doors would be the way forward I feel.

Mike G wrote:22.5 degrees is a useful pitch to remember. It is the lowest pitch suitable for slate. I don't think there is much to be gained from going above that unless you are wanting to use tiles, and so need to be in the 30 degree plus range, depending on type. At 22.5 degrees, your ridge is going to be approx. 3.4m (to structure). A 2400 door opening looks just a little tight to me. I'd suggest 2700 to be comfortable. Your headroom (2550) is available over the entire width of the car. In fact, even at 22.3 degrees, your theoretical headroom is about 2700 over the width of the LR roof, so you could raise it some 750mm off the floor.


Yes 2400 door width will be tight but then any wider and what I gain will be obstructed behind the garage in the block that blocks part of my rear boundary (see page 1) - what am I missing?
Is the 2700 headroom based on the wider door? Because of above mentioned obstruction it would be pretty much impossible to get the LR more central within the workshop?
I'm not trying to be clever, just trying to understand your idea(s) :)
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 31 Mar 2017, 08:53

Hope this helps:

Image

Look carefully. You'll see a raised LR in light grey.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 01 Apr 2017, 20:40

Thanks Mike! That's brilliant! At a guess (from what I've read on here) I'll be looking at 150mm rafters and a substantial ridge beam/board if I want a vaulted ceiling? Need to do some reading vaulted roof construction...

I've been playing with Sketchup and have managed to get a handle on the basics. I'm trying to establish just how far I can have the vehicular access door to the right (viewed as Mike's drawing) - Ideally I'd like room for storage to accommodate 600mm deep crates.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 01 Apr 2017, 21:55

Rafter depth is more often driven by the depth of insulation (and ventilation) than by structural requirements. In this instance, I suggest 200 deep rafters, so that you can use 150 deep mineral wool (its 140, actually), and have 50mm clear above that for ventilation below your breather paper, battens, and Onduline. I'm assuming you are going to line the INSIDE of the roof with OSB.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 03 Apr 2017, 13:11

Thanks once again Mike. 200mm rafters it is! The plan is for the inside of the roof to be clad in OSB.

I managed to do some reading (googling) on vaulted ceilings over the weekend. I understand a vaulted roof requires a substantial ridge board/beam to take 50% of the roof weight (25% onto each wall plate), and this component needs adequate support to transfer the load to the foundations (concrete slab in my instance).
What concerns me is that for my workshop layout it means that directly below the ends of the beam/board is a large opening (the vehicle door). Does this simply mean the 'lintel' above the door will need to be substantial as well? Or perhaps even some sort of 'A frame' with each leg spreading the load onto beefy door jambs?
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 03 Apr 2017, 13:55

spearos wrote:..... I understand a vaulted roof requires a substantial ridge board/beam to take 50% of the roof weight (25% onto each wall plate), and this component needs adequate support to transfer the load to the foundations (concrete slab in my instance).
What concerns me is that for my workshop layout it means that directly below the ends of the beam/board is a large opening (the vehicle door). Does this simply mean the 'lintel' above the door will need to be substantial as well? Or perhaps even some sort of 'A frame' with each leg spreading the load onto beefy door jambs?


Yep, that lintel over the door needs to be beefy anyway just to span that opening, but as the gables are a complete truss the vertical post can be designed away. To reduce the size of the ridge beam we could put a "principal truss" in the middle of the building if that suited, which would have a tie, or a raised tie. My workshop has a hybrid roof, where some is trussed with raised ties, and some of it vaulted with a structural ridge beam (AKA a ridge purlin). There is always a solution to suit individual varying requirements.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 03 Apr 2017, 17:17

Mike G wrote:Yep, that lintel over the door needs to be beefy anyway just to span that opening, but as the gables are a complete truss the vertical post can be designed away. To reduce the size of the ridge beam we could put a "principal truss" in the middle of the building if that suited, which would have a tie, or a raised tie. My workshop has a hybrid roof, where some is trussed with raised ties, and some of it vaulted with a structural ridge beam (AKA a ridge purlin). There is always a solution to suit individual varying requirements.


I get it! Or, at least think I do!! :eusa-think:

Basically it's two big triangles either end! - a case of connecting the end rafters with a tie/bottom chord? And if I'm correct this tie wouldn't need to be too big a piece of timber as it would be in tension?
While we're talking about size :? Would you be able to give me a size for the ridge purlin, with and without a principle truss? Would doubled up 8x2s be ok for the lintel?

I've just read your workshop thread for the umpteenth time and pretty much all the information you've just given me is there. I really should 'consult' your thread more often!!
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 04 Apr 2017, 07:09

It's even simpler than that, Mark. The usual technique is to build the walls to plate height all around, then build the roof, then bring the gables up underneath the end pairs of rafters. This means the plate acts as the tie, so long as it is continuous and there is a proper fixing between the rafters and the plate. Then, just for the sake of belt-&-braces, the OSB ties everything together anyway, removing any chance of spread.

A pair of 8x2s is fine for the lintel. Remember, they need supporting on "cripple" studs (or, indeed, they can sit on top of the wall plate). People often forget the latter option.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 04 Apr 2017, 21:48

Thanks once again Mike. I really appreciate you taking the time (and your patience) explaining things to me, and freely sharing your extensive knowledge. Top, top man :text-thankyoublue:

I've been reading the roofing part of your build. Would I be right in saying that the raised ties on your build are primarily there to give you overhead storage? - It appears to me that what you explained in your last post is pretty much how you built the gables on your workshop, and therefore the ties aren't necessarily needed?

I've also read a bit of Dan's thread and I note that he used a 9"x3" ridgebeam for a 7.2m span, so I assume this would be adequate for my ~6.5m span?


I'm surprised I'm already on page 4 for my 'build' (and probably boring everyone) and yet I've only covered the design! However hopefully it will prove useful to someone, someone inexperienced like myself who would like to know about their options and things to think about.... Possibly! :shock:
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Dan0741 » 04 Apr 2017, 22:17

Mark - Progress seems excellent - It took me a while to plan the roof bits as I wanted as little in the way as I could. Just for clarity my roof is about 6.3m long i think, and i used 9x2's. I bought them in 7.2m lengths and cut the ends off. I know you can use shorter lengths and scarf or bolt together but i felt that was a skill i had yet to master and it was too important to make a mess of... :D
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 04 Apr 2017, 22:36

Dan0741 wrote:Mark - Progress seems excellent - It took me a while to plan the roof bits as I wanted as little in the way as I could. Just for clarity my roof is about 6.3m long i think, and i used 9x2's. I bought them in 7.2m lengths and cut the ends off. I know you can use shorter lengths and scarf or bolt together but i felt that was a skill i had yet to master and it was too important to make a mess of... :D


Thank you Dan.

Yes, a scarf joint is also something I'm not too keen on attempting! There's enough to get my head around without complicating things further, when it would be quicker and less stressful to just take the hit with the additional cost.
Just like to add that I was inspired by your build, the part when you were just about to start on the roof and everything was pretty much bang on mm perfect :eusa-clap: I hope to be as thorough as you and be in a similar situation as I near the end of the framing stage.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 05 Apr 2017, 09:23

spearos wrote:......Would I be right in saying that the raised ties on your build are primarily there to give you overhead storage? - It appears to me that what you explained in your last post is pretty much how you built the gables on your workshop, and therefore the ties aren't necessarily needed?......


No. I didn't have a continuous ridge beam. It wasn't the gables taking the load of the structural ridge, it was some of the intermediate trusses, which therefore needed a tie.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby spearos » 05 Apr 2017, 13:39

Mike G wrote:
spearos wrote:......Would I be right in saying that the raised ties on your build are primarily there to give you overhead storage? - It appears to me that what you explained in your last post is pretty much how you built the gables on your workshop, and therefore the ties aren't necessarily needed?......


No. I didn't have a continuous ridge beam. It wasn't the gables taking the load of the structural ridge, it was some of the intermediate trusses, which therefore needed a tie.


Arghhhhh! :eusa-doh: When I asked this question I was thinking of just the larger roof on your workshop (and I didn't make this at all clear - apologies)
The gable on your bigger roof is effectively a truss using the wall plate as the bottom chord, the other truss on this roof (at the join to the smaller part of the building) has a meaty bottom chord (principle tie?) that as well as spanning the 'opening' into the smaller part of the building it also provides a 'base' for the more traditional 'king post' that supports the ridge on the smaller roof.
So, the ridge beam on the big roof is supported at either end by two trusses hence my questioning of the ties?
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Mike G » 05 Apr 2017, 15:44

spearos wrote:Arghhhhh! :eusa-doh: When I asked this question I was thinking of just the larger roof on your workshop (and I didn't make this at all clear - apologies)


No, I knew that, and my answer stands. I don't think I have a continuous ridge beam on that roof*. The element of the ridge beam which is structural spans the gap between the two trussed sections of roof.

The gable on your bigger roof is effectively a truss using the wall plate as the bottom chord, the other truss on this roof (at the join to the smaller part of the building) has a meaty bottom chord (principle tie?) that as well as spanning the 'opening' into the smaller part of the building it also provides a 'base' for the more traditional 'king post' that supports the ridge on the smaller roof.

Correct

So, the ridge beam on the big roof is supported at either end by two trusses hence my questioning of the ties?


No. As above, it doesn't span from end to end of that roof*. Even if it does, the only part of it that is doing any structural work is that part of it which spans across the gap between the two trussed parts of the roof.

*Turns out I was wrong, and I do have a continuous ridge beam, but it is only a structural ridge beam across the gap (where there are no ties), and thus doesn't need to be beefy.
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Re: Mark's Workshop/Garage

Postby Dan0741 » 05 Apr 2017, 16:53

Much of it was luck, but I was careful. Mainly because i found out early its easier to do things accurately once rather than the alternative. :D
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