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Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

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Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby MJ80 » 20 Mar 2017, 12:30

Well not really related to workshop builds it seemed like the best place to put this.
With the rennovation work on the farm I have two rooms which are cold and leech heat. I was going to sort this before the winter but didn't get round to it, plus it will toughen up the boy.
The rooms (one upstairs and downstairs) both go into the old cowstall extension which is utterly unheated.

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Cowshed is the stone extension to the side
When I stripped everything out the walls have been covered with Heraclit board, which is a wonder material of the 1960's, but a nightmare for timber frames as it is basically pressed hay set in cement. So it doesn't breath and the frames rot, its nickname is the grey death. So anyway I removed it all and decided it would be best to leave the walls to breath and put a gyptrak wall in front of it, board it and be done.
On the opposite side of the room most of the frame was removed in the 1960's and replaced with terrible brickwork that was badly externally insulated by the previous owners. It was easier to gyptrak in front, it is a nightmare of different materials and junctions.
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View from in the large hall to the Oak frame (the offending rooms are behind the right hand area) where they would park the hay rick, which is now a temp workshop
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Above the cow stall
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Up in the roof showing junction stone wall to timber and brick to rear - post to the right is just supporting a joist for the floor above and is not part of the old frame
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So basically the rooms have a funny smell and are cold I am convinced it is from the oak frame that was badly fire damaged a long time ago, because the Oak is covered in carbon deposit and was wiffy when it was uncovered. I should have put a vapour barrier in behind the board, but you ask 3 people here and you get 3 different answers. I went with the Oak Frame who said it best to leave it. There are no obvious signs of damp and the only external facing bit is behind the external insualtion and render.
The single skin wall to unheated area needs to be insulated from the outside. It is the options available that are giving me a headache.

1. The oak framed wall I will pull the gyptrack wall off and insulate using wood fibre boards and then plaster. It breathes and according to people I don't need a vapour barrier behind it. There isn't really enough depth to do anything else there
2. The wall of differing materials - I have a contact who does blown cellulose - I have enough space here for it to be filled. Would the lack of membrane at the back cause probelms
3. Single skin wall - insulate from the cowshed with external insulation and render, or stud wall and blown cellulose.

Anyone got any better ideas how to tackle this?
Last edited by MJ80 on 04 Apr 2017, 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Insulation Quandry

Postby RogerS » 27 Mar 2017, 06:18

Not sure, TBH, but do any of the articles on the SPAB website help?
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Re: Insulation Quandry

Postby Phil » 27 Mar 2017, 06:58

Interresting problem with all that double volume, insulating and heating it up.

Looking forward to your thread.
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Re: Insulation Quandry

Postby MJ80 » 27 Mar 2017, 19:43

I had a jab with the moisture meter to see if there was any difference in the walls and it is all reading fine, but that is only the room side of the plasterboard and plaster on the brickwork. I might make a hole tomorrow and have a look what it says on the other side
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Re: Insulation Quandry

Postby MJ80 » 02 Apr 2017, 20:24

I have been looking into the different options available and can't find a reasonable solution.
The Oak wall is rubble filled and I thought the best option would be the wood fibre insulation, here is the crunch quite a lot of the technical stuff wants it to be bonded direct to the offending surface to create a continuous mass. There is no way that can be fixed without a void and I am worried that would just be creating more problems down the line.
It also doesn't look good on the brick and Oak wall either for the same reason. This brings me back to some form of either blown or slab insulation, but this brings the question of what is the appropriate vapour membrane to use and what would be the appropriate position to place it.
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Re: Insulation Quandry

Postby podengo » 03 Apr 2017, 22:28

Could you build a stud wall inside leaving a cavity that could be ventilated?

Careful detailing could mean a continuous layer of celetex on the cavity side of the stud wall, meaning the studwork is on the warm, dry side.
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby MJ80 » 04 Apr 2017, 20:40

I've been looking back through old photos when I was ripping everything out and the infill panels and covering plaster of the old walls, that ended up going due to a combination of rot, being hacked to pieces in the 1960's and the later works that had been carried out leaving them to be condemned by the engineer.
Anyway the big thing over here for historic buildings is Lehm, which basically sounds the same as Lime, but is in fact clay (daub). The theory is that clay panels are breathable, permeable and equalise the moisture as far as I can figure out. This does away with the need for any sort of barrier and I can really see how it works especially in combination with the wood fibre insulation which could be laid over a bonding coat of clay plaster on the Oak then with a finishing coat of the clay.
My major malfunction with this system which is being pushed is I have seen what happens when it fails and just causes everything to rot. I'll get someone to come out when I get back for an assessment and advice, though I want to find some sort of compromise for it.
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby RogerS » 04 Apr 2017, 21:17

MJ80 wrote:.....
My major malfunction with this system which is being pushed is I have seen what happens when it fails and just causes everything to rot. ....


Are you referring to your own building ?
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby MJ80 » 04 Apr 2017, 21:36

Yes
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby Rod » 04 Apr 2017, 22:01

Seems a strange use as clays are generally impermeable and are used in lining ponds, canals, reservoir cores etc etc.

But looking it up, Lehm is a mixture of clay and sand so perhaps it's the sand content which makes it breathable.

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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby MJ80 » 04 Apr 2017, 22:21

They also used it as mortar, from what someone has told me it was literally dug up, mixed with a bit of sand and used like that.
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby MJ80 » 04 Apr 2017, 22:24

They are also totally convinced it makes a good atmosphere / breathability in the house. I don't know if this is acultural thing as so many houses built after the war are concrete prefab panels. In the old East they are the experts in restoring using this method. I just know when I was taking stuff out thinking about all the old buildings I have worked on thinking this is something like the middle ages not 1850.
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby MJ80 » 04 Apr 2017, 22:26

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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby Rod » 04 Apr 2017, 23:16

Yes a very interesting read.
As a Civil Engineer, clays were always treated with suspicion especially in road building. They had their uses but could also cause big problems with softness, shrinkage, swelling, presence of trees etc etc.
I wonder how the ancients knew which type of local clay would work - trial and error?

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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby RogerS » 05 Apr 2017, 06:09

MJ80 wrote:Yes


OK...then reading your OP seems to suggest that in all walls etc that, at some time in the past, they have applied an impermeable layer of something or other. It's these applications of the wrong material (cement etc) that caused the rot and not anything that was breathable to allow the moisture out.

Breathable material like lime mortar, for example, do exactly that. I'd go with anything that is breathable.

Interesting site you've found.

Have you looked at SPAB ?
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby MJ80 » 05 Apr 2017, 07:12

I'll check it out
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby LawrenceS » 07 Apr 2017, 16:54

Hello to everyone! I registered here just to post a bit of info for MJ80, but it took me so long to get around to making my first post (and having my account approved!) that half of what I was going to post has already been done!
Anyway, have a read of this article from Building Conservation. It suggests, in some cases, not vapour lining the interior of solid stone buildings as it can actually make things worse. I would be worried that if the moisture content went up in the walls, because it is now insulated from the warm-inside, the oak frame may start to rot.
Your decision on whether to use a vapour membrane and damp-open insulation seems to be determined by how much driving rain the walls are exposed to and if they catch enough sun to dry them out.
Cheers,
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Re: Insulation Quandry (Clay Apparently)

Postby Andyp » 07 Apr 2017, 17:15

Hi Lawrence and welcome and thanks for your patience.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
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