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The Orangerie - duff glass-fibre-coating by me

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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby 9fingers » 04 May 2019, 15:32

RogerS wrote:
Many thanks, Jonathan...although the phrase "multipoint virgin" conjures up all sorts of images ! :lol:


I nearly made a similar response when I read Jonathan's comment :lol:

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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby Jonathan » 04 May 2019, 16:36

Totally innocent

If your bored and want some multipoint porn look here.....

https://www.siegenia.com/en/products/do ... y-operated

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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 07 May 2019, 13:02

Not much to report. Endless hours of prepping the timber has given me enough for 6 double 'units' for want of a better word.

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Some of the stiles have gone a bit banana-shaped but I know I can encourage them to behave when I instal them.

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These are all ready to go apart from routing the groove for the bottom panel but that's for when I get back. I've decided that I'll rout the Medite panels all at the same time. That way, the dust is done and dusted in one go. Waiting for the Medite External to arrive.

Need to get some of the multipoint stuff in to have a play to see what's what re the door stiles...sizing etc as I'll then cut the next batch of stiles to suit that and I can select those stiles that maintain their straightness for the doors. Then rip the remainder for the 'unit' stiles.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby Norty Raskel » 01 Jul 2019, 21:59

Hi Roger,

How's the orangerie progressing? I thought I'd highlight a problem I've come across with mine, in the hope that you can avoid the same issue.

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(204.6 KiB)


This is the state of my eaves closer, absolutely full of flies. When I put my seal along the eaves closer, I thought about putting a seal top and bottom, but decided against this as I wanted movement of air to avoid condensation/damp, but this has now left with 3-4mm cavity which has become a fly graveyard on the south facing side of the lantern.

Keep in mind my orangerie is still open at the sides so there's nothing preventing the insects and occasional wood pigeon from entering, hopefully once the windows and doors are in, the problem will be dramatically less, but I suspect I'll still need the get the steps out periodically to vacuum out the bodies.

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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 02 Jul 2019, 10:57

Thanks for the heads up.

To answer your question re progress, the answer is none. Done nothing for a couple of months. In fact, seem to have done nothing elsewhere either. Mojo finally given up the ghost.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 08 Oct 2019, 17:18

Time I posted a bit about the orangerie. Progress has been slow, mainly due to lack of funds and more pressing other activities like these for LOML.

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But we have made some progress. First task (and one that I really wished I’d outsourced) was to rout the borders to create raised fields on the Medite External bottom panels for the glazed panels and doors. I knew that it as going to get messy and so I connected up and baffled off everything that I could. I had two vacuums, the chip extractor, the ceiling mounted air recirculating filter and another recirculating filter machine all going. Masked up as well, obviously.

Even so, at the end of the session I had all this to clear up.

Router table

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Bench top

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Floor

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Router ‘box’

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I was vacuuming up for days afterwards.

…to be continued
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 09 Oct 2019, 07:25

You've seen a few of these photos already ..

I then started work on the first ‘prototype’ glazed panel.

Top rail. I plan to use pocket screws to fix up to the outer frame at top and bottom as well as the sides.

What I call the Top Middle Rail…note the slope on the top for water run-off

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And I seem to a bit light on photos of the other rails !

All went together OK and so down to the rest. My trouble is that I hate repetition which is damn stupid really - especially with a combination machine as you’re forever swapping things over and resetting which is a waste of time.

So I bit the bullet and after a hard day’s graft I ended up wth these

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and these

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As all the stiles were prep’d I kept a weather eye one for those that were bowing after initial ripping etc so that I could earmark them for the fixed panels as opposed to the doors for obvious reasons.

…..to be continued
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 29 Oct 2019, 09:31

So..time to cut the Domino's. Now made a bit of a rod for my back here since I've made those stiles so narrow. The good news is that I found a very good narrow door lock....
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....which will fit in (just). From a security aspect, it's not that strong but then there'll be nothing much of value inside to nick.

Because I'd made those stiles so narrow I was a bit concerned about them warping over time and so agreed with LOML that only one pair of doors would be fully 'lockable' (you have to buy the Euro keylock separately) and the three other double doors, although having the same lock (without a Eurolock!) and door handles, would have Yale door bolts fitted top and bottom of each door. So these doors would be 'held' firmly to prevent undue warping/twisting. The downside being that I'd not really left myself much room to get big fat domino's in and still use those door bolts. Hey ho...we are where we are.

OK...marking up and it's here that I like using those Axminster Steel Layout Squares. They really come into there own when you have many, many of the same thing to mark up. In my case 56 stiles and a 112 rails of various widths. Now some folk will use a storystick to transfer the marks but IMO when you have this number to do that is a very slow way to do things. First off, you need to make sure that your witness marks go all the way round your story stick otherwise your kind of extrapolating where the mark needs to go on your stock. But even then, once you've made your mark, you've then got to pick up a square, align it on the mark then draw the pencil line for the guide on the Domino machine...repeat ad nauseam. Too longwinded. There is a better way.

Ta.da...

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I've got two dominos to cut in the top rail (different sizes to accommodate the door bolts), two in the bottom rail and one in each bottom middle and top middle rails. The reference point for the bottom domino on the bottom rail is set using the reference pin on the domino machine...ditto the top rail. But the position for the other dominos on the rails is done using these squares. You just simply set them up once and that's it. Just place them on the rail and draw the line. Job done in one go. Simples.

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They can also be used for the dominos at the top and bottom of the stiles leaving just the two dominos in the stile part way up for the bottom middle rail and part way down for the top middle rail. It all becomes 'automatic'. You just have to remember to make sure you reference stiles and rails from the same side when you're marking up for the dominos.

The last bit of preparation is to drill the holes in the ends for the door bolts. Need to get those centrally down the stiles. So I first made up a block taken from a stile offcut and drilled avertical hole on the drill press.

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Then made a little jig into which this guide block would be clamped and the ends of each stile. Allow for a little bit of wiggle room in case the stiles aren't all exactly to the same width..

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Hey Presto.

And the last thing to do prior to glue-up is to chamfer off just a little bit of this corner on the rails and the corresponding position on the stiles because no matter how careful one is, with dominos in rebated stock as I have here, it only takes a tiny smidgeon of misalignment and when you start to glue up you find that you can't easily get the rail and stiles to meet as there is a conflict between the dominos and the rebate. So knocking off the corner makes it all slide in nice and easy.
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To be continued .....
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby Malc2098 » 29 Oct 2019, 10:05

:text-bravo:
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 07 Dec 2019, 18:40

So…glue-up time. I only have one assembly bench and so it’s going to be a bit of a long-drawn out process but this is how I go about something like this. It’s not pretty but it’s functional.

First you need the tools of the trade. These are the essential ones.

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And, of course, clamps. A scrap of paper to put the glue brush down onto while your squeezing out the next dollop is useful.

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Only it’s not a good idea to use a piece that you’ve written down your timber shopping list for the next stage.

I sand down the edges of the panel to ensure that it slides into the grooves easily at glue-up time. Last thing you want to be doing is struggling with this panel. Because it’s nasty MDF I use my trusty handheld Mirka sander with built in dust-extraction. Very cheap and brilliant to use. If you haven’t got one then stick it on your Christmas list.

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I’ve prepped up bags with the requisite number and size of dominos needed for each panel or door because the key to a glue-up is preparation, preparation and preparation as I’ve found to my cost in the past.

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I’ve labelled the stiles as to whether they are door lock/opening stile or hinge stile. And which pair of doors or panels they belong to. A set of rails and stiles is then ‘drawn’ from stock and we’re good to go.

They key I find is to plan the sequence and don’t let your mind drift off elsewhere.

I run a couple of lines of glue on the inside face of the groove where the bottom panel is going. That way the glue gets pushed into the groove by the panel as opposed to being scraped off and making an unholy mess if I applied the glue to the panel.

I spent ages Googling to see the preferred way of glueing up domino’s and came to the conclusion that there was no right way. If you put the glue inside the slots then you run the risk of not being able to fully close up the joint due to hydrostatic pressure in the domino slot ‘cos those dominos are a tight fit. If you apply glue to the dominos then it can get wiped off as you push the domino in.

I ended up stuffing glue all over the place. I would NOT be doing this so cavalierly if it were a piece of furniture.

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You also need to decide whether you apply glue to the rails or the stiles. I finally came to the conclusion that the best way was to glue the groove in the stile, glue the area where the rails would meet, glue the domino slots. Then insert the dominos.

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Then turn the stile through 90 degrees and clamp it to the assembly bench. Apply glue to the exposed dominos. Apply glue into the groove on the bottom rail and bottom middle rail and then slide, squeeze, cajole, hammer them onto the domino’s attached to the stile.

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Carry on and fit the top middle rail and the top rail. The top middle rail had previously been marked up to indicate the top since there is a slight slope on it for rainwater to run off. Ditto the ends of all the rails and the stile…all labeled up so that I don’t have to think as I glue-up. It all simply flows together with no cock-ups . :eusa-whistle:

Image Slide in the panel.

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Clean up any excess glue.

Glue and domino up the other stile and fit to the ends of the rails and panel. Clamp it all up. I like these Axminster clamps a lot.

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Check the diagonals and apply a bit of ‘persuasion’ the get them equal thus ensuring the door/panel is square. The nice thing about these Axminster clamps is that you can join two together.

Check for wind.
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Go and have a beer as I can only do one at a time. Only another 27 to do.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 07 Dec 2019, 18:49

And here's some I prepared earlier :D

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Glass in. Outside has been sealed with linseed oil paint and also most of the panels inside. The panels were painted before the glass went in. And now SWMBO has decided she doesn't like the paint colour but has offered to repaint it. LOL...that'll never happen.

I rather like the way the lantern seems to 'float'.

Ta...da :obscene-drinkingcheers:

Temporary guttering down a couple of sides and now site closed until next year.

Then we will decided on whether the ovals get placed in all the windows and/or the plant on verticals which was the original plan.

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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby DaveL » 07 Dec 2019, 18:58

Roger, well done for keeping at this, it's been a long somewhat difficult job but it looks great now.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby Mike G » 07 Dec 2019, 19:58

Looks fantastic, Roger.....and it looks like you know what you're doing! :) Hey, there are a few photos there without any rain in them. What's going on?
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby Malc2098 » 07 Dec 2019, 21:41

:text-bravo: :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap:
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby MY63 » 07 Dec 2019, 22:08

I think you deserve a medal a wooden one obviously
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby Andyp » 07 Dec 2019, 23:01

Roger your perserverance in the face of all sorts of adversities is admirable and the result looks mighty fine from here.

One question is that MRMDF ? I have only ever seen it green before.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby StevieB » 07 Dec 2019, 23:18

Excellent stuff. Never having used domino's before, I am struck by the gap to each side when you insert them. Are they supposed to swell like biscuits an fill that void, is it a glue gap or are they wedged so tight they are not gonna move? I note you have a hammer - do the dominos themselves need a tap then? Any biscuits I cut are always easy to fit by hand....
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 08 Dec 2019, 07:05

Andyp wrote:Roger your perserverance in the face of all sorts of adversities is admirable and the result looks mighty fine from here.

One question is that MRMDF ? I have only ever seen it green before.



Thanks Andy.

No, it's Medite External. MRMDF is only good for occasional water contact. Mind you the linseed oil paint should make either more weatherproof.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 08 Dec 2019, 07:11

StevieB wrote:Excellent stuff. Never having used domino's before, I am struck by the gap to each side when you insert them. Are they supposed to swell like biscuits an fill that void, is it a glue gap or are they wedged so tight they are not gonna move? I note you have a hammer - do the dominos themselves need a tap then? Any biscuits I cut are always easy to fit by hand....


The small domino machine lets you cut three different slot widths. The first is a very tight fit for the domino. So you do need something to push the dominos in with. So if you are using multiple dominos at a joint then you need to be spot on where you cut the slots in both pieces of timber so that they line up perfectly. I tend to take the easy way out and just cut one domino per joint at the tight fit. That becomes my reference for how the joint will register together. Subsequent dominos in that joint will have the next wider slot width cut to give me some wiggle room.

I never really liked using biscuits as I thought that they slopped around too much.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby StevieB » 08 Dec 2019, 10:08

Thanks for that Roger, most helpful.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 08 Dec 2019, 17:46

StevieB wrote:Thanks for that Roger, most helpful.


Thought you might be interested to see the range in sizes of dominos.

The original Domino had limitations in terms of thickness of domino (10mm) and slot depth. To address this limitation and enabe dominos to be used in doors and window construction, for example, Festool brought out a larger version which now can cut a slot for a 14mm domino and length 140mm.

Below for comparison is the smallest 4mm thick domino on the baby Festool and on the right the large 14mm domino for the larger machine

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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby StevieB » 08 Dec 2019, 20:58

That is quite an impressive range actually! Again - many thanks :)
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby TrimTheKing » 10 Dec 2019, 23:02

Looks good Rog

Regarding gluing of Dom's, I have two tricks for avoiding the hydrostatic pressure/glue mess issues.

Firstly a couple of passes of a fine saw down the long sides, leaving a shallow kerf the full length of the Dom, allows glue/air to escape.

Secondly I also often give each side a few vigorous rubs on a sheet of 80 grit, and also rub off the 'points' on the curved sides which also gives a little space for glue to move. Sanding the sides doesn't take off enough to introduce slop but does mean they go in easier then swell.

Can be a pain when you have a lot to do but allows me to glue the slots and not have the mess you talk about.
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby BigMonka » 17 Dec 2019, 16:00

That's looking great Roger. Can I ask about the slim windows that you had down both sides on the short edge of the building - is there a reason for them or just a design choice?
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Re: The Orangerie - time for the 'walls'

Postby RogerS » 17 Dec 2019, 17:41

BigMonka wrote:That's looking great Roger. Can I ask about the slim windows that you had down both sides on the short edge of the building - is there a reason for them or just a design choice?


Thanks, BM.

It was by design AKA cock-up ! But SWMBO likes it so that's all good then ;)

What happened was that the design was predicated on those (to be redone) ovals. Three in a line defined the width of both fixed panels and doors. I got the long sides OK but when it came to the ends, I realised that the ovals wouldn't fit in exactly. Hence the slim windows.
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