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Sealing problem

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Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 04 Oct 2019, 15:03

Hi chaps...wondering if any of you have any clever creative ideas to solve my conundrum ?

At each hip end of the orangerie lantern, I have five metal rafter cover bars that converge as per the photo. The two hip bars aren't shown but I think it's pretty clear where they fit into the picture.

Image

You can also see their profile more clearly in this shot.

Image

The three rafter cover bars in the photo have their ends sealed off (more or less) with plastic inserts but the hip bars are cut to mitre in.

On top of these bars is a semi-circular end cap ...which has a flat bottom. So I need to form a seal over the five rafter bars...but how ? I have some lead flashing and I was thinking of dressing it (it's Code 3 so more easily workable) as best I can over the top of the five bars with a good dollop of silicone sealant underneath. Maybe even resort to cutting the lead into slices and overlapping themselves like a fan - if you get my drift.

But while that seals the bars, it still leaves me with channels between the lead and the underside of the cap.

Fill to the top of the channels with silicone ?
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2019, 05:17

No-one ?
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Jonathan » 05 Oct 2019, 06:23

Rodger
Don't quite understand.....a quick drawing might help.



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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2019, 07:07

Jonathan wrote:Rodger
Don't quite understand.....a quick drawing might help.



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Does this help?
hip roof.png
(245.2 KiB)


The arrow points to the junction in question. It's not the actual rafters that are the issue but the bars that sit on top of the glazing to seal them.

capex ridge hip.png
(339.47 KiB)
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2019, 07:12

If it was all wood (ie no glass) then I'd simply dress the lead over the bars as one continuous piece to maintain water-tightness integrity. But because there's glazing panels involved, dressing the lead stands a high risk of shattering the glass. So I'm currently thinking about dressing five separate pieces using some spare rafter capping bar as a template and then trimming them in situ and overlapping as we go with loads of silicone.

Then fixing the ridge bar and end cap in place and squirting in more silicone into the gaps.
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2019, 07:21

Image
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby StevieB » 05 Oct 2019, 08:13

I cannot envisage any option other than silicone or similar to be honest, given the irregularity of the shape. Two ideas that probably wouldn't work:

Some form of decorative cap or box (small cupola of finial with a base?) that goes right over the whole meeting point and is easier to fit to the roof

A silicone rubber mould that then gives you a shape to form a cap into, but not quite sure how that works in practice. I have seen rubber moulds of complex shapes made but never done it.

Is it a poor design that means you run the risk of water ingress or are you just doing a 'belt and braces' job?
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Cncpaul » 05 Oct 2019, 08:27

Can you not form a mock up with plywood and some off cuts of the glazing bars, then dress the lead over that
then place it in situ,

Bearing in mind where you live and the weather you get I think that pieces of lead and gobs of silicone
will fail.


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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Robert » 05 Oct 2019, 10:16

We had a small problem with that joint on our lantern roof.

This is what the capping looks like
Image

There was no leak in the most torrential rain but light rain combined with cross wind blew water up the roof slope and leaked in at the apex.

The installers solution was to pack it out inside with silicone to fill any gaps. Nothing visible on the outside or inside and no more leaks since it was done 5 years or so ago. So I'd suggest some kind of cover but with silicone underneath where it is not seen.
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2019, 11:02

Here are a couple of photos showing the 'problem' !

Image

Image
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Jonathan » 05 Oct 2019, 13:30

Rodger
I doubt lead will stop water getting in there if any wind is involved....it would look good though!
My solution would be to CT1 it.....and then lead on top or a finial to give the Gucci effect.

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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Robert » 05 Oct 2019, 14:58

Slightly OT... I'd never heard of CT1 so had a google. Amazon 1 star reviews mostly talk of it degrading in sunlight and going off colour etc. Is it really better than silicone?
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Coley » 05 Oct 2019, 18:43

I'm gonna suggest a bodgy idea that might just work. Cover the area in masking tape and get an off cut of your tricoya. Buy a tin of decent 2 pack filler and spread a 20mm thick layer on the tricoya. Push it over the masked up area until most of the filler oozes out after hitting a hard spot. Trim you finish creation to your desired shape (perhaps a circle?) Prime it all real good. Then prime it a couple more times just for good measure. Bed it on with plenty of silicone, let cure then cut off the squished out silicone.
When I was an apprentice I went out on site and help an experienced chippy fit some fancy wooden cornice we had machine. He had to do a bisecting angle but somehow made a pig's ear of it. Rather than running out more timber with numerous spindle settings he mixed up some 2 pac filler and smeared it on the joint. Once it had hardened and chiseled off to match the missing mould it was almost unnoticeable. In my eyes it was a bodge, but it got him out of a sticky situation.
I've use the masking tape/2pac filler to create custom sanding blocks. It works !

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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Woodster » 05 Oct 2019, 20:45

Jonathan wrote:Rodger
I doubt lead will stop water getting in there if any wind is involved....it would look good though!
My solution would be to CT1 it.....and then lead on top or a finial to give the Gucci effect.

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I agree but a properly dressed lead capping would indeed look good and it could be installed with lashings of silicone sealant! :D
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Jonathan » 05 Oct 2019, 20:51

Robert
CT1 is a well known german brand of polymer silicone....over here I use MSP 107
Any good brand will work, basically it moves and seals like a silicon, it's also a good adhesive and you can paint it.

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Re: Sealing problem

Postby techauthorbob » 06 Oct 2019, 09:06

I too would use CT 1, and have used it on lots of outdoor and indoor sealing/ sticking problems in the past with NO problems at all!

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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 06 Oct 2019, 09:29

Many thanks for all your suggestions...

Coley...I used that dodge when making a profile for an old glazing bar..it's a good dodge. I cover my palm in cling film, a dollop of 2-pack, another layer of clingfilm then press the palm over the glazing bar. When it goes off, you've got your profile to work the cutter to.

Robert...that's helpful as it looks as if I'm going down the right track.

In the end I made a few pieces of lead dressed round the bars as best I could. Bloody hard to do as I never found a good way of getting any sort of support for me while working as those rafters are right slippery. If I had some of that router matt then I could have glued that to an offcut of ply and spanned two rafters but I didn't. Ended up doing a Pilates bridge one-handed, while attempting to do the work with the right hand...knackered up a nerve in my left hand with too much pressure ...hopefully it will cure itself given time.

Resulting job not that pretty and so no photos !

Just about to go outside to see how it's faired overnight with the rain. If you hear a scream and the sound of a grown man sobbing then that will be me.
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Robert » 06 Oct 2019, 10:25

When they worked on ours they just laid large bubble wrap onto the glass, then a lump of plywood and then bodily laid on top of it with feet on the flat roof.
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 06 Oct 2019, 10:36

Robert wrote:When they worked on ours they just laid large bubble wrap onto the glass, then a lump of plywood and then bodily laid on top of it with feet on the flat roof.


I'll remember that...good tip. :eusa-clap: Only potential trouble I have is that my roof is glass-fibred, wet and very very slippy. Quite a few times I had a sense that my toes were starting to slip.

And the good news is .....

So far...so dry. :eusa-dance: :eusa-pray:
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Andyp » 06 Oct 2019, 10:51

yeah but has it REALLY rained yet :)

Following with interest, how about a shot from a distance
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 06 Oct 2019, 12:06

Here you go :lol:

Untitled.png
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby MY63 » 06 Oct 2019, 12:51

Looks good so far. we had some pretty biblical rain fall overnight so it should have had a good test.
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Andyp » 06 Oct 2019, 14:03

RogerS wrote:Here you go :lol:

Untitled.png


Spoilsport
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby Malc2098 » 06 Oct 2019, 15:29

RogerS wrote:Here you go :lol:

Untitled.png



Pedant!! :lol:
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Re: Sealing problem

Postby RogerS » 07 Oct 2019, 17:44

Andyp wrote:
RogerS wrote:Here you go :lol:

Untitled.png


Spoilsport


Oh, all right then :D
Image

The bit of duck tape is covering a small area that needs silicone sealant when it tops raining. Not sure why the tops of the lead have got some white on.

Little white covers still to go onto the screwheads. They were nasty Pozidrives. I couldn't use Torx because the white covers wouldn't fit. :(
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