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Pete's Workshop Build

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Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 22 May 2020, 18:41

Hi All,

Newbie to the Forum but have been following many of the workshop builds.

We moved to Devon just over a year ago and have a smaller property. The one thing I miss is having a nice double garage / workshop. Our last house had a huge one, built to house standards with cavity walls and insulation etc.

We do though have a large garden here which we are busy landscaping. A nice greenhouse is already installed and a 5m x 4m concrete slab awaits the building of a workshop...

I plan to follow Mike's shed design but this workshop will have a flat roof. Whilst a keen / extreme 'Diyer' this will be a big and new project for me.

I'm still finalising the design although to be honest, its a big square box! What's troubling me is how to design the roof.

Looking at the Span tables, a 47 x 170 mm (C24) will span 3.88 m at 400mm spacings but I think I'd rather go with 600mm spacing so then it's only 3.45m

First question, as this is a workshop not a house, would 47 x 170 suffice or do you think I should go for 47 x 195 which will cover the span at 3.95m?

I then need to decide on a warm roof or a cold roof. I know most of the pros and cons. I *think* I'd prefer to go for a warm roof (sloping by 3m down to 2.5m at the eaves) and leave the ceiling joists exposed but here is my second question. Do the chosen ceiling joists need noggins between them to ensure they keep their shape and don't warp? If they do, I kind of think that might detract from having the open joists.

Any comments much appreciated...
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Andyp » 22 May 2020, 19:39

Welcome to the forum Pete. I am sure someone will be along soon with some help.

You seem to have duplicated this post. I have deleted the other one.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 22 May 2020, 19:54

I posted and then a while later couldn't find it so re-posted. That's when I paid more attention to a "Waiting mod approval"!!!!!!!
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Malc2098 » 22 May 2020, 20:02

Welcome, Pete.

Wanna pop up-over to Tiverton when this is all over and have look at how the forum helped me build mine?

I'd go for a pitched roof. It looks right.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Andyp » 22 May 2020, 20:37

Peteh wrote:I posted and then a while later couldn't find it so re-posted. That's when I paid more attention to a "Waiting mod approval"!!!!!!!


No worries, one more post and the spam trap will disappear.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 23 May 2020, 18:21

Malc2098 wrote:Welcome, Pete.

Wanna pop up-over to Tiverton when this is all over and have look at how the forum helped me build mine?

I'd go for a pitched roof. It looks right.


Hi Malcom,

That would be great. I've read about your build - looks good.

Not sure about the pitched roof as in our circumstance as it's fairly secluded and a pent roof might make it less obtrusive! But agree in general they look better.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Malc2098 » 23 May 2020, 21:57

You can store stuff up there, too, without hitting your head on it!
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build (Slab)

Postby Peteh » 25 May 2020, 09:35

The slab has been laid. It's vey close to 5085 (wide) by 3884 (deep).

If I got my calculations correct, then it will minimise board cutting. If not, hey ho!

We have a builder around at the moment and he took a day out to lay the concrete base. With the wife's (!) assistance we had already put down several inches of hardcore in place and blinded it with building sand.

We (well, mainly the builder) then mixed up 2 cubic metres of concrete for the base. It was a hot day and he worked the surface a little too hard with the "Big Blue float" and this has resulted in the near perfect finish "de-laminating". It's not the end of the world because I was figuring on probably some Celotex insulation but it does remove the option of leaving exposed concrete. I'll have to work at the surface a bit more because the entire surface hasn't de-laminated. Then perhaps seal it and paint it?

The base is 100mm thick and has steel mesh through the middle.

20200515_140557.jpg
(577.73 KiB)


Am I 100% happy with the base. No. I would have liked a premix but we'd have needed a lot of equipment and cost to get it through to the back garden. 100mm was about the most we could mix without it going off too quickly. Maybe in hindsight we should have casted it in two sections. Anyway, time will tell...

Anyone any thoughts about the roof (earlier post)?
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 25 May 2020, 10:05

No particular opinion on warm or cold roof but I'm old school and only ever built cold ones.
Whichever you do, ventilation ventilation ventilation!
As for noggins, as a minimum I'd fit them along the joint lines of your decking sheets so there can be no flexing at the joints to damage the roof surface.

If you are going for a flatish roof, then my choice would be EPDM. Long lasting material and pretty easy to fit.

hth
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 25 May 2020, 10:26

Two cubic metres for just under 20 square metres of slab. That's only 100mm thick. That's a gamble. I'd have looked for an inch or two more depth than that if it were mine. If you're in perfect ground conditions you might be OK.

Keep it damp in this weather. Hose it down, put some plastic over it. Slow down the rate of drying as much as you can.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 26 May 2020, 09:19

It was kept wet for 8 days. Hope that was sufficient and fingers crossed re: the depth. The ground is very stable so am hopeful.

Any thoughts on the roof, particularly with reference on whether noggins are required or not,

Looking at the Span tables, a 47 x 170 mm (C24) will span 3.88 m at 400mm spacings but I think I'd rather go with 600mm spacing so then it's only 3.45m

First question, as this is a workshop not a house, would 47 x 170 suffice or do you think I should go for 47 x 195 which will cover the span at 3.95m?

I then need to decide on a warm roof or a cold roof. I know most of the pros and cons. I *think* I'd prefer to go for a warm roof (sloping by 3m down to 2.5m at the eaves) and leave the ceiling joists exposed but here is my second question. Do the chosen ceiling joists need noggins between them to ensure they keep their shape and don't warp? If they do, I kind of think that might detract from having the open joists.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 26 May 2020, 11:02

Peteh wrote:Any thoughts on the roof, particularly with reference on whether noggins are required or not,



I responded to that query above but I could be wrong as only an amateur on the subject?

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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 26 May 2020, 13:53

The roof? Well, I don't do flat rooves unless it is absolutely unavoidable. If you are trying to build within a height restriction for Permitted Development Rights reasons, then you probably would avoid a warm roof. A cold roof works perfectly well when you have all the edges of the roof available for ventilation, as you do with a stand-alone shed.

Noggins only occur in walls. In the horizontal, the equivalent is called solid blocking. Your building doesn't need to comply with any regs as it is under 30 sq m, so if you did a warm roof it is your call as to whether or not to do solid blocking (or cross bracing) to avoid twisting. As I said, this isn't a position I would put myself in, so I can't really give an opinion.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 26 May 2020, 18:00

9fingers wrote:
Peteh wrote:Any thoughts on the roof, particularly with reference on whether noggins are required or not,



I responded to that query above but I could be wrong as only an amateur on the subject?

Bob


Yes and thank you. EDPM for the roof definitely but I'd like to elicit several views on how important the cross bracing is.

Apologies if I'm asking dumb questions etc. Still also getting to grips with how the forum works...
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Malc2098 » 26 May 2020, 18:18

Pete, the forum welcomes questions because that's how we all learn, including those just dipping in and out.

I can't give you an answer for a pent roof, because I pitched mine, no blocking, filled between the rafters with pir insulation, screwed 18mm OSB on the topside which contributes to stopping the rafters twisting and screwed 11mm OSB to the underside so it was effectively a torsion box.

Battens were fitted over the top OSB to provide airflow under steel roof panels.

I would see if you could try and achieve a pitch.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby MY63 » 26 May 2020, 18:37

Hi Pete
I am looking forward to your build, I too considered a pent roof for a long time eventually I went with the pitched roof or roove. As my workshop faces the back of my house and I can see it from the kitchen I am pleased that I did.
I am not sure I understand the warm roof cold roof thing, I think mine is warm as it is packed full of insulation. With an air gap between it and the outer skin.
Take your time and try to enjoy the process.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Andyp » 26 May 2020, 18:47

Others here have more knowledge and experience in roofing than do I. I would say this...
What’s the cost/time impact if you over engineer by cross bracing between the rafters?
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 26 May 2020, 18:50

Andyp wrote:Others here have more knowledge and experience in roofing than do I. I would say this...
What’s the cost/time impact if you over engineer by cross bracing between the rafters?


It's not a cost / time issue. I just felt the looks would be better without cross bracing...
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Malc2098 » 26 May 2020, 20:16

Pete, as a non professional my take on it is this, and any professionals reading can blow this out of the water if it's wrong.

Noggins are fixed between studs because the load is downwards coming from above and that can buckle, rather than twist, the studs.

The roof rafters have a load above them, but nothing near as much as the vertical studs do.

I created a torsion box with my roof and I think others have, too. I don't think rafters buckle if the are the correct thickness and width according the the tables. The roof's greater problem is preventing condensation rotting timber due to inadequate ventilation.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 26 May 2020, 21:13

Malc2098 wrote:Pete, as a non professional my take on it is this, and any professionals reading can blow this out of the water if it's wrong.

Noggins are fixed between studs because the load is downwards coming from above and that can buckle, rather than twist, the studs.

The roof rafters have a load above them, but nothing near as much as the vertical studs do.

I created a torsion box with my roof and I think others have, too. I don't think rafters buckle if the are the correct thickness and width according the the tables. The roof's greater problem is preventing condensation rotting timber due to inadequate ventilation.


Thnaks Malcolm,

I'll go with the warm roof. I feel this will give the feel of a little more height than with a cold roof and the rafters enclosed.

I appreciate all the comments about a flat / pitched roof but this build is almost tucked away behind a bank and the flat roof will be less visible.

This will keep the "management" very happy...

I guess if I don't like it then if Mike is correct and the concrete isn't man enough, Version 2.0......
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 26 May 2020, 21:42

Peteh wrote:......I'll go with the warm roof. I feel this will give the feel of a little more height than with a cold roof and the rafters enclosed............


Huh? It does the precise opposite. For the same external height you get a higher ceiling with a cold deck. I mean, go for a warm deck by all means, but this isn't one of the reasons to choose it.
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Peteh » 27 May 2020, 21:34

Mike G wrote:
Peteh wrote:......I'll go with the warm roof. I feel this will give the feel of a little more height than with a cold roof and the rafters enclosed............


Huh? It does the precise opposite. For the same external height you get a higher ceiling with a cold deck. I mean, go for a warm deck by all means, but this isn't one of the reasons to choose it.


Yes but my view was the open joists would give the impression of more space...
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build (Drainage)

Postby Peteh » 28 May 2020, 09:11

Winding back prior to the concrete slab laying, we dug in a soakaway crate and laid 30m of drainage o use for the workshop.

20200427_142212.jpg
(556.01 KiB)


This wasn't quite as thorough a job as Dan did but hopefully it will do the trick.

20200427_154826.jpg
(396.74 KiB)



PS I don't know how to rotate the image which is correct on my pc...
Last edited by Andyp on 28 May 2020, 09:32, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: image rotated
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build

Postby Andyp » 28 May 2020, 09:34

Pete are you using an Apple device for taking photos. If so

**Photos taken on Apple devices have an annoying habit of not rotating properly when viewed on non apple platforms.
For best results take all your photos in landscape view with the volume control button at the bottom of the camera. If you have photos that have been taken in other orientations, then try bringing them into iPhoto and uploading them to the forum from there
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Re: Pete's Workshop Build (Roof design again)

Postby Peteh » 28 May 2020, 09:37

[code][/code]I'm now questioning my original idea of a pent roof, partly as a result of the feedback on here.

I'm now trying to consider what's going to look best. Undoubtedly a pitched roof is the more pleasing but I'm concerned it will dominate the garden. The extra storage of a pitched roof isn't a deal breaker here.

The slab viewed from the pictures below is 5m wide and 4m deep. If I go for a pitched roof do I span the short side or the long side? If I span the long side I might have an opportunity to place solar panels on one side of the workshop...

But, a 30 degree angle roof gives an overall height of the ridge at nearly 4m (2.5m + 1.4m) which means it's higher than the hedge above the fence behind. I fell that's too dominating.

If I go for a 20 degree angle then the ridge is closer to 3.5m which I think is better. 10 degrees gives a ridge of about 3m.

If I pitch the roof across the short span then the ridge heights are: 30 - 3.7m; 20 - 3.2m; 10 - 2.9m.

Picture below is view from the patio:

IMG_20200528_091811.jpg
(554.94 KiB)


And to the front of the slab

IMG_20200528_091828.jpg
(461.11 KiB)
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