Windows
Nordic Pine
Anyone have advice on obtaining ceiling roses (in Edwardian style)? Do you have a preferred supplier? Is there a sizing formula? Are non-plaster versions any good? All facts and opinions welcome.
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Ceiling roses
- Thread starter Windows
- Start date
Alasdair
Sapling
There is an excellent supplier just outside Glasgow who will courier some of their products across country, Reproduction Plaster Co
Our Victorian home had lost a few of its period features when we bought it. One thing missing was a ceiling rose in the front room, which still had its cornice in place. I bought a fibrous plaster rose from local specialists Hales and Howe. They do all manner of ornamental plasterwork and a huge range of ceiling roses to suit different ages and styles of property.
One potential problem is that they are heavyish (in the bigger sizes) and quite fragile. I was lucky at the time as their workshop was only a short walk away and I just carried ours home in a box. (I was also able to see for myself that the work they do is indistinguishable from the work it needs to match - they use the same traditional materials and techniques.)
Their website does say that you can order a rose and have it "hand delivered" but that does sound as if it might cost more than the thing itself... but I've not checked and I don't think they expect all their customers to walk in.
Here's ours in situ:
I was pleased to find that it was surprisingly easy to fit. It's held up with four countersunk screws, which went into flat areas of the design. I just filled the holes in afterwards with some Polyfilla and gave it a coat of emulsion paint all over. Most of the roses they sell are adapted for electrical fittings to go in the centre.
If you can, I would definitely go for a plaster rose. The plastic moulded imitations just look like plastic moulded imitations!
One potential problem is that they are heavyish (in the bigger sizes) and quite fragile. I was lucky at the time as their workshop was only a short walk away and I just carried ours home in a box. (I was also able to see for myself that the work they do is indistinguishable from the work it needs to match - they use the same traditional materials and techniques.)
Their website does say that you can order a rose and have it "hand delivered" but that does sound as if it might cost more than the thing itself... but I've not checked and I don't think they expect all their customers to walk in.
Here's ours in situ:
I was pleased to find that it was surprisingly easy to fit. It's held up with four countersunk screws, which went into flat areas of the design. I just filled the holes in afterwards with some Polyfilla and gave it a coat of emulsion paint all over. Most of the roses they sell are adapted for electrical fittings to go in the centre.
If you can, I would definitely go for a plaster rose. The plastic moulded imitations just look like plastic moulded imitations!
SamQ aka Ah! Q!
Old Oak
"If you can, I would definitely go for a plaster rose. The plastic moulded imitations just look like plastic moulded imitations!"
Seconded. You CAN fill and delicately sand the polystyrene ones, which makes their original substrate disappear, but it is an operation of some delicacy and not a little frustration.
Like EtV and Alasdair, I used fairly local plaster manufacturers. They can be surprisingly cheap for cornice runs, even complex ones, though roses are more expensive. It pays to ask for either 'a John Juke' (look) at their stock, or photos of what thay still have the moulds for. Creating a new mould to exactly match your old one will require significant shekels, but an existing one just needs filled and cured; it may not be perzactly wot one had before, but it's cheaper!!
Seconded. You CAN fill and delicately sand the polystyrene ones, which makes their original substrate disappear, but it is an operation of some delicacy and not a little frustration.
Like EtV and Alasdair, I used fairly local plaster manufacturers. They can be surprisingly cheap for cornice runs, even complex ones, though roses are more expensive. It pays to ask for either 'a John Juke' (look) at their stock, or photos of what thay still have the moulds for. Creating a new mould to exactly match your old one will require significant shekels, but an existing one just needs filled and cured; it may not be perzactly wot one had before, but it's cheaper!!
Are you replacing/matching an existing one, or does the exact design not matter?
We don’t actually have any ceiling roses (building age, and none retrofitted – fine by me as I don’t like central lights), but when some replacement cornicing/mouldings were needed for the Borders property the original plasterer was still in business, and still had the moulds and profiles. So, if you’re matching something it may be worth trying to find out who originally did them.
There was a thread about cornicing to which I contributed a while back: https://thewoodhaven2.co.uk/threads/running-cornice.6735/#post-109474. That may contain some useful information.
You could always have a go at making it yourself – it will be time consuming and messy, but quite good fun.
As for proportions I don’t recall having seen anything, but possibly some of the old plastering manuals (generally available on the internet) may have something. My own personal view would be to err on the larger side. Just because a piddly little thing would look quite comic.
We don’t actually have any ceiling roses (building age, and none retrofitted – fine by me as I don’t like central lights), but when some replacement cornicing/mouldings were needed for the Borders property the original plasterer was still in business, and still had the moulds and profiles. So, if you’re matching something it may be worth trying to find out who originally did them.
There was a thread about cornicing to which I contributed a while back: https://thewoodhaven2.co.uk/threads/running-cornice.6735/#post-109474. That may contain some useful information.
You could always have a go at making it yourself – it will be time consuming and messy, but quite good fun.
As for proportions I don’t recall having seen anything, but possibly some of the old plastering manuals (generally available on the internet) may have something. My own personal view would be to err on the larger side. Just because a piddly little thing would look quite comic.
Stephenson's of Norwich are good.
Lons
Old Oak
We have two in the lounge cast and fitted by myself some 30 years ago. They were very simple to make however I was a part time lecturer at a local college and used their mould and materials. From memory it was plaster with strands of glass fibre mixed in for strength though O don't know if that's essential and there may be more suitable materials these days. Given her way my missus would have them removed asap as she doesn't like them but I'll be damned if I'm going to re plaster the ceiling. I'm not that desperate for extra brownie points. 
I'd echo what's be said about fake ones which you can spot a mile away and never look right.
I'd echo what's be said about fake ones which you can spot a mile away and never look right.
Eric the Viking
Nordic Pine
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I have bought from both George Jackson (were in Hammersmith, now Sutton, Surrey), and Hayles & Howe, Bristol in the past.
A couple of thoughts:
- Unless it's a Georgian place, and/or you are doing a direct replacement, go slightly simpler than the design that most appeals to you. So for most Victorian or Edwardian places choose something a bit smaller and a bit less decorated than the books tell you was correct. It'll fit right in, and look like it belongs.
- Avoid "3D" Acanthus leaves like the plague (the 'stick on with plaster slip' sort). They're really hard to fit perfectly and keep on the ceiling afterwards, and a total PITA to paint properly. And you'll catch yourself looking nervously upwards for years afterwards...
- Don't trust any existing lath to support the pendant light, if it's anything other than the simplest single bulb. Get access above and fix a 3" wide strip of decently thick ply across between the joists, as close to the top of the lath as possible. Drop the twin+earth slightly offset from the exact centre, as that's where the support bracket usually needs to run. Do a dry run upside down on the floor (I.e. with the electrolier's fittings) to catch any issues, before you fit the rose up there permanently.
- If the electrolier has a chocolate block as the connector, you don't necessarily have to keep all three parts together - splitting it into three individual connectors may mean it all fits under the cover much more easily.
- I have a simple rule with metal light fittings, both freestanding and wall or ceiling: I do not trust any statement or logo that indicates "double insulated". It's roughly translated as "We're too cheap to fit an earth!". So...
... I contrive an earthing point on any metal light fitting that doesn’t have one. I pay special attention to ceiling fittings, on the basis that getting a shock up a stepladder can also involve an attack of gravity. You can get suitable tags etc. from Ebay, Amazon, etc., and it's usually practical, without compromising the "double" insulation itself. I'll not go into the details on this, as it gets very specific.
Suffice it to say, if there are any sharp metal edges anywhere near the wiring, either fit your own earth or take it back and complain, or both. I once succeeded, with the help of Trading Standards, to get a range of light fittings withdrawn by a big retailer, as TS agreed with me that the sharp metal bits inside meant a "double insulated" status was ridiculous.
Enough already!
E.
A couple of thoughts:
- Unless it's a Georgian place, and/or you are doing a direct replacement, go slightly simpler than the design that most appeals to you. So for most Victorian or Edwardian places choose something a bit smaller and a bit less decorated than the books tell you was correct. It'll fit right in, and look like it belongs.
- Avoid "3D" Acanthus leaves like the plague (the 'stick on with plaster slip' sort). They're really hard to fit perfectly and keep on the ceiling afterwards, and a total PITA to paint properly. And you'll catch yourself looking nervously upwards for years afterwards...
- Don't trust any existing lath to support the pendant light, if it's anything other than the simplest single bulb. Get access above and fix a 3" wide strip of decently thick ply across between the joists, as close to the top of the lath as possible. Drop the twin+earth slightly offset from the exact centre, as that's where the support bracket usually needs to run. Do a dry run upside down on the floor (I.e. with the electrolier's fittings) to catch any issues, before you fit the rose up there permanently.
- If the electrolier has a chocolate block as the connector, you don't necessarily have to keep all three parts together - splitting it into three individual connectors may mean it all fits under the cover much more easily.
- I have a simple rule with metal light fittings, both freestanding and wall or ceiling: I do not trust any statement or logo that indicates "double insulated". It's roughly translated as "We're too cheap to fit an earth!". So...
... I contrive an earthing point on any metal light fitting that doesn’t have one. I pay special attention to ceiling fittings, on the basis that getting a shock up a stepladder can also involve an attack of gravity. You can get suitable tags etc. from Ebay, Amazon, etc., and it's usually practical, without compromising the "double" insulation itself. I'll not go into the details on this, as it gets very specific.
Suffice it to say, if there are any sharp metal edges anywhere near the wiring, either fit your own earth or take it back and complain, or both. I once succeeded, with the help of Trading Standards, to get a range of light fittings withdrawn by a big retailer, as TS agreed with me that the sharp metal bits inside meant a "double insulated" status was ridiculous.
Enough already!
E.
Windows
Nordic Pine
Thanks everyone. There’s a lot of good information here. Really appreciate it.
We’re just getting two relatively small roses. There are no others in the house, so we don’t need to match existing. One of the rooms has cornice already, doors and skirting are relatively simple originals, fireplaces in the house have a slightly nouveau motif, but there’s no fireplaces left in the rooms that are getting the roses so not concerned about matching that. We’ll just pick something we like that’s not too anachronistic.
We’re just getting two relatively small roses. There are no others in the house, so we don’t need to match existing. One of the rooms has cornice already, doors and skirting are relatively simple originals, fireplaces in the house have a slightly nouveau motif, but there’s no fireplaces left in the rooms that are getting the roses so not concerned about matching that. We’ll just pick something we like that’s not too anachronistic.
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I can't remember how we chose our design or settled on the size. But if I was starting over, I'd ask around the neighbours to see if anyone had an original I could match. Easy if you live in a long terrace of similar houses. Otherwise I'd show the specialist plasterers photos of the room and give them its dimensions. They'll have looked closely at more examples than I ever will and should know what would be right for the house.
Windows
Nordic Pine
Following Roger’s recommendation of STEVENSONS OF NORWICH (because they made it really easy to order with delivery directly from their website), we got a couple of these which arrived 4 days after we ordered. The items were well packaged and look good. Would use again. Thanks for all the tips everyone. It’ll probably be after Christmas for the install.
Glad to be of help. They're a good company with some excellent products.