Fluid-driven tools

[Windows]

Why aren’t hydraulic tools more popular for woodworking?

 

[RogerS]

Because the way current tools are made and designed work just fine. So why add complications ? Remember the mantra - KISS

 

[Windows]

Are fluid tools more complex? (I’m not saying they aren’t. I literally don’t know). The kind of thing I’m wondering is why does everyone using a router have to carry & push a motor around that can’t be shared between tools? Spinning a bit at the business end using a fluid seems simple (to me who has never given it any thought and is not trained in mechanical engineering. LOL) and much lighter and more manoeuvrable for the operator.

Dentists (often? sometimes? rarely?) use air driven drills, for example.

 

[Trevanion]

Are fluid tools more complex? (I’m not saying they aren’t. I literally don’t know). The kind of thing I’m wondering is why does everyone using a router have to carry & push a motor around that can’t be shared between tools? Spinning a bit at the business end using a fluid seems simple (to me who has never given it any thought and is not trained in mechanical engineering. LOL) and much lighter and more manoeuvrable for the operator.

Dentists (often? sometimes? rarely?) use air driven drills, for example.

If you go into large factories you'll find a lot of the tools are indeed air-powered because they have massive compressors and storage vessels so it made sense to use air tools, as well as air tools generally being far more simple and durable than electric. Triumph Furniture in Merthyr before they went bust had massive screw compressors and storage vessels, along with hundreds of air drills, sanders, nail guns, etc... A very long time ago you also had air-powered routers as that was one of the few ways to achieve the speed required for routers to cut effectively and the pneumatic router was much smaller than their electrical counterparts at the time which were colossal and heavy.

Compressed air however is quite an expensive motive power, for the amount of air that's expended during use with a sander for example you need a pretty large compressor to keep the vessel charged so that it doesn't drop in power at the tool. So you're effectively paying for a 1.5kw motor running continuously on your compressor rather than around 300w for an electric motor on the tool itself. Pneumatic tools are also significantly louder than their electric counterparts, the air movement through the tool to make it turn makes a lot of noise.

You don't often see hydraulic tools, but who do convert machines to hydraulic, pneumatic or even diesel engine power are the Amish and Mennonites in the United States, I have seen several woodworking machines that they have converted to run off alternative power supplies.

 

[AndyT]

Just thinking about the occasional hobby user or self-employed trader - it's a much easier decision to pick up a £50 drill, router or sander and get on with it, compared to finding room for a big noisy pump for £500+ and commit yourself to using it anywhere you need a tool.

And electric tools don't leak dirty oil onto the carpet.

Dental tools are a different case altogether, and I for one am very happy that they are so good now. No more frayed driving belts lumbering slowly round exposed pulleys.

 

[Windows]

That’s very interesting. I didn’t know the business end of the tools also made more noise because of the air (although I’m all too well aware that compressors are typically loud).

 

[Duncan A]

.....and battery tools are changing the game once again.
No leads or hoses to get tangled.
Duncan

 

[AndyP]

.....and battery tools are changing the game once again.
No leads or hoses to get tangled.
Duncan

Indeed just batteries to be replaced after how many years/charging cycles? The cynic in me sees rechargeable anything as an advancement in the built in obsolescence that manufactures have been practicing for years.
Had cause to use my father’s old Bridges electric drill a few weeks back, must be at least 60:years old. No hammer function but still capable of drilling holes in brickwork. I wonder how many cordless drills will last that long,

 

[AJB Temple]

Andy is right. My first power drill was a grey (pro) black and decker made in Switzerland I think. I still have it and still use it 40 years later. My first battery drill was a Ryobi (when they were good - pre DIY green era) followed by a very nice Elu. In both cases the drills were fine but the batteries failed and then were obsolete.

 

[Ovaloe]

Indeed just batteries to be replaced after how many years/charging cycles? The cynic in me sees rechargeable anything as an advancement in the built obsolescence that manufactures have been practicing for years.

In fairly heavy trade use, the answer (for professional level batteries) is something like 4 to 6 years at 3 to 6 charges a week. The thing is, regularly used trade cordless tools rarely survive much longer, given the way they are so often abused. And the replacement model after 5 or 6 years is often lighter, more powerful, has better ergonomics, etc. That said, I've now had 9-1/2 years out of my Makita (brushless) SDS drill, albeit with a couple of minor repairs and a new body shell after I cracked the last one by dropping it off a cherry picker. I don't know how much longer my current 18 volt Makita LXT batteries will be available, but they've been around since about 2005 or 2006 in the UK and Makita are still introducing new tools for the range, so hopefully I'll be able to get batteries for a few years yet. Against that I have to admit that some of my regularly used corded tools are 30+ years old (generally the ones without any electronic doohickeys, though)

Battery tools also have some major advantages over older generation corded stuff - working without a cord makes life a lot easier when you are up on a roof or on an access platform, and they allow power tool use in places where there is no mains power (with reduced trip risks from trailing cables). There are now some fantastic tools available because of the adoption of brushless motors which make life a lot easier, e.g. 12 volt brushless die grinders - a personal favourite - and oil impact drivers.

Had cause to use my father’s old Bridges electric drill a few weeks back, must be at least 60:years old. No hammer function but still capable of drilling holes in brick work. I wonder how many cordless drills will last that long,

Yes, but will it drill multiple large diameter holes in heavy masonry - say 24 no x 16mm diameter holes for resin anchors into Accrington blues (dense engineer's brick)? Not a chance! My 1981 Bosch SDS could still do that until just before I disposed of it at age 20, my 9-1/2 yo Makita still does that. Reason for Bosch disposal: unable to obtain a component required for a repair (a capacitor). The two limiting factors are probably long term battery availability and parts availability - both substantially better on trade models. Purely from the point of view of a regular tool user in trade, though, modern power tools are just so much better than what we had in the 1970s, 80s, etc, For that I accept that they aren't going to last forever

 

[heimlaga]

It all depends on what you do.

As a speciality restoration carpenter my power tools must be big and powerful because of the rather large timber dimensions I work with. It is also quite an extensive field with wide variations from one job to the next which means that I need a wide variety of tools though each one of them gets only limited wear. One week I may be turning a wind shaft for a windmill and another week I may be shifting rotten logs in a historic log house or shifting a plank in a clinker built wooden boat or I may be out in the woods harvesting timber for an upcoming project. With a bit of drystone work and bricklaying and forging and welding in between though I don't really consider those to be my specialities.

The end result being that I prefere corded tools of the most durable model that can be found. My oldest stationary machinein use at the moment is by bandsaw which was made in the 1910-s. My newest stationary machine was made in the mid 1980-ies. My oldest hand held power tool in use at the moment are a 1960-ies drill and a 1980-ies angle grinder. My 1940-ies portable chain mortiser is awaiting repairs. Many more are from the 80-ies and 90-ies. If I had to cut short the lifespan of my tools because of limited battery life or planned obsolesense it would increase my costs to such an extent that my work would become unaffordable. Some of my larger on-site power tools and machines don't even exist in battery powered version so I need power cords onsite anyway.

We all have different needs. "One size fits all" hardly fits anyone.

 

[Ovaloe]

If I had to cut short the lifespan of my tools because of limited battery life or planned obsolesense it would increase my costs to such an extent that my work would become unaffordable. Some of my larger on-site power tools and machines don't even exist in battery powered version so I need power cords onsite anyway.

One of the problems I sometimes have is that there isn't always corded power available where I need to work - bear in mind that we are legally required to have 110 volt on site in the UK, and that there is a finite distance you can run such cables before voltage drop bfecomes an issue. In my case a mixture of hand and cordless tools has become a necessity in order to complete work to schedule, especially as there is always a goodly amount of drilling and screwdriving to do, for which cordless knocks corded i to a cocked hat. Ten to fifteen years ago I'd have agreed with you that many of the power tools I need simply didn't exist in cordless. However, over that period there has been a revolution in cordless technology with the arrival of brushless motors, 36, 40 and 54 volt battery systems coming of age and something of an explosion in the range of tools available. These days the main corded tools I need are probably my Milwaukee recip saw and a 230mm Hilti portable rip saw. For the rest cordless often suffices. And you learn to deal with battery life by ensuring you are carrying enough batteries of sufficient capacity. BTW I mainly undertake heritage work, and it isn't all redone using the original methods

 

[heimlaga]

The power tools I mostly use on site are in random order:
-Chainsaw. Husqvarna 353. Petrol powered
-Large drill for peg holes. Eibenstock EHB 32/2.2 R R/L
-Sawzall. Makita. Don't remember to model. Corded.
-Hand held electric plane. For years I have used a Makita 1911B which really has been too small for the job. A wonder it hasn't burned out. At the moment I have a lightly used Makita 1806B on it's way to me. It will be more adequate.
-Hand held cirkular saw. 62mm cutting depth. Makita. I cannot remember the model but essentially it is a discontinued equivalent of HS7611. Corded.
-Crosscut/mitre saw. Dewalt 777. Corded. Often too small for the job. Soon to be seconded by the greter crosscut capability of the Gjerdesag.
-Table saw. 3kw 3 phase 400 volt Electra Beckum with 300 mm blade. Really too small for the job but this was what I could find secondhand and could afford when I started out. As an upgrade I have purchased a secondhand Gjerdesag (sold as Norsaw abroad). Equivalent of the current model 1603. I plan to repair and modernize the Gjerdesag this winter and put it to use next summer. Depending on which replacement motor I choose it will be either 3.4 or 4 kw with a 400mm blade. 3 phase 400 volt as is common onsite in Finland.
-Battery powered 18 volt bog standard Milwaukee drill.

As you can deduce I often work with rather large timbers.
It seems you are much more narrowly specialized than I am and generally work with much smaller timber scantlings. And consequently you are tooled up for what you do. In a rather sensible way I would say.

 

[Ovaloe]

In general larger timbers on our projects are pre-machined by the workshop wherever possible before being sent out for installation. After all you can't really take a 2 tonne 2in hydraulic mortiser up onto a church roof with you! With the relatively short transportation distances which are common here, putting some stuff back to the workshop works out more cost effective for us.

Even where it is necessary to carry out larger works in situ, such as splicing repair ends into things like 24 x 10in beams, much of the prep work is done in the workshop first. In that instance a mixture of hand and power tool work is required. It doesn't mean that we don't require power tools for big stuff occasionally, but even there we have for example replaced our 120 volt alligator saws with 54 volt cordless ones, which work as well as the corded equivalents but don't require me to string 200 ft or more of cable up a scaffolding onto a roof from a site transformer (and take it down when I leave the job). TBH as soon as Milwaukee convince me that they can supply a corded recip saw to match my current corded one (and they are getting close), I will be adding one to the tool kit as well.

BTW I tried cordless chop saws a few years back, both Makita and DW, but went back to using 110 volt corded models, although that was as much to do with replacement blade costs as it was to do with anything else - the super thin blades they require are expensive (and you tend to get a lot of inclusions in old timbers when recycling materials). For standard framing or joisting work using new materials, though, there really isn't much wrong with them IMHO, but up on a roof I generally don't use them as I find American-style framing saws with a speed square to be more appropriate. The only problem is that we've been limited in size until the recent introduction of a 40 volt 260mm saw by Makita. I'm now trying to get hold of one on loan

I get the impression you really don't like cordless tools. Personally, they fix many problems for me, although I agree they aren't appropriate for every task

 

[heimlaga]

I see. You work as part of a large crew with a logistic backup and with premachined parts arriving to the site. Where every man is rather specialized.

Our carpentry tradition is very much based on scribe fitting timbers with at least some sides left in their natural state. There is nowhere to measure from unless you work right beside the place where the timber will go.

I work either alone or sometimes with a helper. Since the supply line and the logistic organsation for heritage work are inadequate or nonexistant in rural Finland I may at best be supplied with a stack of sawn timber in roughly correct dimension. Though just as often I end up with growing trees as the only avaiable source of materials. I don't have a sawmill of my own (yet) but around here it is generally possible to find a local sawyer who is willing to saw the timber for the project.
Transporting large timbers from the site to my workshop and back is just not viable. Shaking long distanses back and forth at 20 kilometres an hour in the unheated cab of my Massey-Ferguson 165 is just too hard on the body and too slow. My workshop is mainly for doors and windows and such joinery as well as my sideline one man wooden boat repair business. Winters onsite are hard in Finland.
I would probably be thought of as ridiculously underfinanced and underinvested among people you know. Though reality is what it is. I was looking for a way to use the skills I had to get out of unemployment and off befefits and to my great surprise everything worked out perfectly and I have gained a solid reputation locally while employers are waiting up to 8 months for me to turn up and sort out their projects.
I am freelancing as an employee for the job and this means that when I am hired for a job I am everything from project manager to structural engineer to logger, sawyer's helper, timber stacker, rigger, carpenter, joiner, and sometimes blacksmith and welder and bricklayer and shovel man as well. They usually hire me when they are at their wit's end.


This means that I end up doing a wide array of work. Which means that I need a wide array of tools while each of them gets only rather limited use. Which means that I must be very concerned with the cost and lifetime of tools.
Battery tools just don't fit in here. The batteries are bound to die from age before the tool is worn out. While costs are always an issue.

 

[Mike G]

Interesting conversation.........and you work sounds fascinating, Heimlaga. It'd be great if you'd post some photos now and then.

-

By "fluid driven tools" I expected the conversation to be about mills and shaft drives and big belts.......

 

[Ovaloe]

I see. You work as part of a large crew with a logistic backup and with premachined parts arriving to the site. Where every man is rather specialized.

It's actually very far from that. Our current core team is 4 carpenters (although the full.site team contains anything from a dozen ttsdesmem up to 100+ on the last phase) with other bodies pulled in as required. We utilise pre-machined components where it is more efficient (i.e. cheaper), and the same is true for some of the repair work which is done by the workshop rather than on site, because it's all about the bottom line, but we still do a heck of a lot of standard and traditional carpentry - anything and everything in the course of a project from shuttering to roofing (standard pre-manufactured truss roofs up to things like traditional m&t iòking post truss roofs, etc) or floor joisting/studwork to (re)installing oak panelling, and so forth.0 I need to be able to do modern carpentry, such as metal-framed plasterboard ceilings and suspended ceilings as well as to be able to recut and repair the aforementioned king post trusses, box guttering, skirting grounds and even lath work (for lath and plaster walls). The (one) thing we don't do is log framed buildings - it's not really part of the tradition here, at least in England. But if somebody came up with a 300 year old one which needed restoration...

TBH I prefer being back on the tools these days - it's far more satisfying and less stressful than wearing a "black hat" which I used to do on a lot of jobs. I call it a premium of retirement

 

[heimlaga]

Where is the difference then...... I am trying to understand...... because to me in my everyday life your tooling would not make any sence.
Trying to understand..........

If I spent money like that on what is only a part of my work I would be bankrupt.

 

[duke]

I use both corded and battery tools.
Corded tools- job site table saw - circular skill saw- reciprocating saw - hand held planer and belt sander - as well as various drills - routers - jig saw.
Battery tools - circular skill saw - drills and impact drill - jig saw - palm sander - reciprocating saw ( for tight working areas )
AS you heimlage, I do work in remote areas where there is no electricity, so a gas generator is a must. The reason for a mix of power tools is in case the batteries fail or charging unit does then corded tools . I mostly use corded tools except for impact driver , palm sander and jig saw.
Nothing like having an issue with tools if you don't have a backup, especially when it's a one hour boat trip to an Island.